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[Merged]Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon


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#76    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

It makes perfect sense, and is nothing like your apeal to ridicule (
http://www.nizkor.or...o-ridicule.html)
This link does not prove your point. Allthough hypothetical, the example is clearly taken out of the context that such remarks are usually made. To conflate the issue to include the entire world is ridiculous, and to me shows a particular bias on the part of the author of that page.


#77    Supersquatch

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Evolution has everything to do with our biology. If this is simply biological, then quite likely evolution had a hand. In this particular case it would be have to be a side effect.... An accident that we precieve these things upon near death.  Again that's one hell of an accident.

You are saying that as if near death experiences were actually modified through evolution, of which there is no such proof. I severely doubt that they evolved to comfort humans, as there is, also, no evidence.

View PostSeeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Perspectives taint everything we experience and have nothing to do with the event itself. Why would it be any different for spiritual experiences?

Cultural differences in NDEs are supporting the idea that there is only deity--the Christian god--or that there is a heaven or a hell.

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#78    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:31 PM

View PostZeta Reticulum, on 09 October 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon

A prominent scientist who had previously dismissed the possibility of the afterlife says he has reconsidered his belief after experiencing an out of body experience which has convinced him that heaven exists.

Dr Eben Alexander, a Harvard-educated neurosurgeon, fell into a coma for seven days in 2008 after contracting meningitis. During his illness Dr Alexander says that the part of his brain which controls human thought and emotion "shut down" and that he then experienced "something so profound that it gave me a scientific reason to believe in consciousness after death."

Source: http://www.telegraph...in-surgeon.html

A NDE is such a profound experience it leaves people in no doubt that theres an afterlife.


#79    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:32 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 10 October 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:


Perhaps it does, yes; however, you stated that there is no evolutionary pressure that would warrant good, peaceful feelings in death.


Or, a good amount of people simply do not have them. Period. Some brains work differently than others, and we know this. Also, that is a poor analogy, as if you were to whack me on the head with a hammer, I would be able to remember it, depending on the amount of force being applied to the whack. That was a horrible analogy.


How is it "quite obviously not mass hysteria"?


Logical to you does not equate to logical in the realm of science. You may choose to believe in whatever you wish, but that does not mean that there is any truth in that belief. You can have faith, of course... but, again, that does not make the belief true. And, I am quite content in saying that they misinterpreted what they saw, and labeled it as being a spirit world.

To be quite frank, we haven't the slightest shred of physical evidence in reinforcement of a spirit world. All we have are anecdotes involving people "dying, seeing the spirit realm", and then coming back to life where everything is hunky dorey. If you choose to believe that, that is fine; but if you do, then I place you into the same category as an individual who would believe an individual whom claimed that they saw a pink elephant standing on top of the empire state building. There is no evidence for it whatsoever.
Yes that's why I said if its biological, it must be an accident a fluke of conciousness.

It most certainly does! That's why we have formal rules for logic.

"You may choose to believe in whatever you wish, but that does not mean that there is any truth in that belief. You can have faith, of course... but, again, that does not make the belief true. And, I am quite content in saying that ----it is what it appears to be----." I'm simply saying the exact thing back to you.

If there is a spirit world it quit obviously is not a physical place. I'm not sure why you would expect Somone to be able to bring back a "spirit rock" like the moon landing.

In fact, there are detailed descriptions of procedures, items, conversations etc etc. experienced by NDEers. Varified by doctors, and the critique of the verification is sketchy, creative, and laced with bias. They don't hold up to scrutiny either.

We are also at the limits of empiricism. Yes empiricism is very flawed. There are plenty of things to discover that will be statistically probably based on mixtures of circumstance, anecdote, and deduction. Even if we are unable to verify it physically. Just like gravity, we can only measure something by its effects. At the moment ( until prooven otherwise) gravity is a non physical cause that affects the physical. There is no reason to make philosophical ( materialist) assumption and aply it to a phenomenon, when clearly the body of evidence suggests other wise.

And I will place you in the same category of people that claim to be logical yet use logical fallacies in nearly the same paragraph.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#80    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:37 PM

View PostTaylor Reints, on 10 October 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:



You are saying that as if near death experiences were actually modified through evolution, of which there is no such proof. I severely doubt that they evolved to comfort humans, as there is, also, no evidence.



Cultural differences in NDEs are supporting the idea that there is only deity--the Christian god--or that there is a heaven or a hell.
Right..... I'm was speaking hypothetically if NDEs have a purely a biological make up.


Heheh? Supporting the Christian god? I don't think so.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#81    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 10 October 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:


Do you have a comprehensive run down of these experiences showing that they do indeed match? And I don't mean vagaries like "a bright light".

"Common Aspects Analysis

What I submitted for review is the following, taken from over twenty years of study and with a research base in excess of 3,200 NDErs:

I.  Context of experience: either A or B must be met:
A.  Symptoms or signs suggesting serious medical illness or injury, or physiological crisis/accident of some kind; or,

B.  NDEr's expectation or sense of imminent death.
II.
Content of experience: an intense awareness, sense, or experience of "otherworldiness" - whether pleasant or unpleasant, strange or ecstatic. Episode can be brief and consist of only one or two elements, or can be more involved, even lengthy, and consist of multiple elements. Elements commonly experienced are:

A.  Visualizing or experiencing being apart from the physical body, perhaps with the ability to change locations.

B.  Greatly enhanced cognition (thoughts very clear, rapid, and hyper-lucid).

C.  A darkness or light that is perceived as alive and intelligent and powerful.

D.  Sensation of movement and/or a sense of presence (hyperalert faculties).

E.  Sudden overwhelming floods of emotion or feelings.
F.  Encounter with an identified deceased person or animal, or an encounter with an apparently nonphysical entity.

G.  Life review (like a movie or in segments, or a reliving).
H.  Information can be imparted, perhaps dialogue.
III. Typical to the experience:
A.  Near-death states can occur to anyone at any age, including newborns and infants, and remain vivid and coherent lifelong (unless societal or family pressure weakens memory clusters - repression more common with child NDErs than with teenagers or adults).

B.  Children's episodes are usually brief and encompass few elements. The closer the child is to puberty, the greater the possibility of longer, more complicated scenarios.

C.  The pattern of psychological and physiological aftereffects seems more dependent on the intensity of the experience, than on any particular imagery or length of exposure to darkness or light.

D.  Attitudes and feelings significant others display after the NDEr revives directly influence how readily he or she can integrate the experience. Episode content is secondary to that initial climate of interest or disinterest."

http://near-death.co...evidence06.html

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#82    FlyingAngel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:35 PM

It's probably not because having a NDE that the doctor changed his mind, but it' because of the content of NDE itself. For example, what's the point of floating above your body, looking at your own body in bed. Why many NDEers share that same event only when they have NDE, why it's not happening when you are simply dreaming.

While there is no actual proof to link the NDE and the after life, those who had a real NDE will tell that it's not just a simple dream/hallucination made by the brain. Those who never experience will keep hanging on their limited knowledge that they entitled it "rational" and "logic"


#83    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:30 PM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 10 October 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

It's probably not because having a NDE that the doctor changed his mind, but it' because of the content of NDE itself. For example, what's the point of floating above your body, looking at your own body in bed. Why many NDEers share that same event only when they have NDE, why it's not happening when you are simply dreaming.

While there is no actual proof to link the NDE and the after life, those who had a real NDE will tell that it's not just a simple dream/hallucination made by the brain. Those who never experience will keep hanging on their limited knowledge that they entitled it "rational" and "logic"
You are right of course. Why floating above your body? Why not pink elephants on parade? Why not spaghetti gods? Why not driving you car? Why not a million other scenarios like when you are dreaming?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#84    Dr. D

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:27 PM

They have been trying to create some connection between NDEs and reality for decades.  A little less than two years ago I was sitting in my car with three bullets in me.  I could see the car seat filling with my blood.  In the unconscious moments, I suppose I could have embraced the teachings of my youth and imagined my soul in vigilance over my body or the River Jordan and loved ones waiting, or a thousand other scenarios.  But it didn't happen.  And if it had, it would have meant only that I saw things while unconscious.  Nothing more.

To relate the experience to an "evidence" of an afterlife is far less valid than the Bridey Murphy case that was claimed to give proof to reincarnation.  At least she spoke a dialect and her existence was proven.  Comatose images cannot be linked to anything other than comatose images.


#85    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:35 PM

View PostDr. D, on 10 October 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

They have been trying to create some connection between NDEs and reality for decades.  A little less than two years ago I was sitting in my car with three bullets in me.  I could see the car seat filling with my blood.  In the unconscious moments, I suppose I could have embraced the teachings of my youth and imagined my soul in vigilance over my body or the River Jordan and loved ones waiting, or a thousand other scenarios.  But it didn't happen.  And if it had, it would have meant only that I saw things while unconscious.  Nothing more.

To relate the experience to an "evidence" of an afterlife is far less valid than the Bridey Murphy case that was claimed to give proof to reincarnation.  At least she spoke a dialect and her existence was proven.  Comatose images cannot be linked to anything other than comatose images.
Unless you wake up and describe to the doctor what was happening and even the tools he was using.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#86    Dr. D

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:51 PM

What registrations enter the mind during a surgery are unknown.  Even an OBE can be a possibility but that in no way gives evidence to life after death.


#87    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostDr. D, on 10 October 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

What registrations enter the mind during a surgery are unknown.  Even an OBE can be a possibility but that in no way gives evidence to life after death.
Possibly.... But If Somone is haveing perceptions outside of their bodies and describing events and sites when their faces are covered--- see the pam Reynolds case... I think it would lean that way. But you are right, no one has really died and come back at least not in totality only variouse definitions of being dead that is an ever marching line these days

Edited by Seeker79, 10 October 2012 - 09:13 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#88    Bling

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:18 PM

There's another thread about this story

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=235545


#89    Cybele

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Riiiiiigggghhhhhhttttttt.  Do you realize what you are saying? There could be zero evolutionary pressure to create such a common hallucination  for humans.... Why? Because you are dieing!!! 200,000 years go there was no Difibulator!!! :)

Why would a fairly random process ( evolution) make it more comfortable for you to die, but excruciating to give birth? It dosnt make any sense at all.

Imo, the above comes at this from the erroneous angle that nature and natural selection (though definitely not random) are intelligent processes.

Such a process wouldn't have to result from evolutionary pressure on what happens at the moments before death. It could be associated with, or be a side effect of, some other feature that has undergone evolutionary pressure in the past. Just as schizophrenia, which in some instances might be interpreted as contact with a "spirit world", is thought to be a rare side effect of evolutionary pressure that led to symbolic thinking and greater language capacities in humans, NDE experiences may be side effects of some other trait.

Edited by Cybele, 10 October 2012 - 10:08 PM.

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#90    Supersquatch

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Right..... I'm was speaking hypothetically if NDEs have a purely a biological make up.

It didn't seem like it.


View PostSeeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Heheh? Supporting the Christian god? I don't think so.

I apologize, I meant not supporting the Christian God.

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