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[Merged] Proof of Heaven


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#46    Habitat

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:25 AM

View Postpreacherman76, on 10 October 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

He made a really good point that I had never thought of before. If this is simply a matter of unexplained brain activity, then why is it that the only people they meet in this altered conscienceness that they know, are all dead? You think it would be more likely that they would see people that they interact with everyday, then seeing people they only knew when they were children, ect ect. Very cool story.
I haven't read the whole article, did he claim to only encounter dead people ? Is this the  norm for such experiences ? You are right, if it is indeed true, this is a most tantalizing aspect of the phenomenon.


#47    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:31 AM

View PostHabitat, on 11 October 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

I haven't read the whole article, did he claim to only encounter dead people ? Is this the  norm for such experiences ? You are right, if it is indeed true, this is a most tantalizing aspect of the phenomenon.

Yes, that is the norm. I am unaware of any of the thousands who have been studied claiming they saw or interacted with anyone known to be alive. That really is a VERY good point as he said.


#48    Habitat

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:44 AM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 11 October 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Yes, that is the norm. I am unaware of any of the thousands who have been studied claiming they saw or interacted with anyone known to be alive. That really is a VERY good point as he said.
I would say it is quite remarkable, if in fact the case.


#49    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:55 AM

View PostHabitat, on 11 October 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

I would say it is quite remarkable, if in fact the case.

I can't say that I ever looked for that specific featured in the more than 250 cases that I, myself have read, but I am quite sure that had anyone mentioned seeing someone who they also saw or talked to when they "came back" I would have jumped all over it as obviously being a false case of anything having to do with "after death." Unless they were talking about seeing people right after they had supposedly died, which many report, such as doctors & nurses or ambulance attendants or anyone who was with them when they died.

Some also speak about "going up" through the ceiling and instantly traveling a great distance to view a loved one, but then they continue "upward" and they never again see anyone who is currently living. They also very rarely see any religious figure they happen to follow though they are ALL convinced they are in God's presence and He is always seen as "light." (Except in VERY rare cases this is true and I tend to believe the few that report otherwise have done so to make it fit their religious beliefs so as not to lose support among friends and relatives by admitting that "Jesus: or "Buddha" was a no-show.)

Some interpret a figure of light as having been Jesus or Buddha or Muhammad, etc., but they almost always say that it was a figure of light "who must have been _______." Most people do see many different people including dead friends or relatives, but many don't. Of course sometimes this is a very quick experience and some like the doctor's lasts much longer.


#50    preacherman76

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:44 AM

View PostHabitat, on 11 October 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

I haven't read the whole article, did he claim to only encounter dead people ? Is this the  norm for such experiences ? You are right, if it is indeed true, this is a most tantalizing aspect of the phenomenon.

They were talking about that in the interview. Not only him, but it seems to be the case with all NDE experiances. Other then these guys talking about it, I have no way to verify that.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#51    White Crane Feather

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:14 PM

View Postfailturner25, on 10 October 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:



I dream of the deceased and my dead dogs sometimes without seeing anyone else, does that mean I was in heaven?

Anyway, how do we know he wasn't lying, lying is pretty easy to do nowadays, people fall for all sort of things.
No it's not. Any police station will have a voice stress analyzer. It's nearly impossible to lie these days.

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#52    Dr. D

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:48 PM

Bottom line . . . near death is exactly what it says . . . . it is not death.  Whatever experience it provides cannot be equated to whatever happens (if anything) after death.


#53    joc

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:02 PM

Since you have this thread going, I see no reason to hijack the other thread...so...I will begin posting here now.

I did have a thought.  It isn't the first time I've thought this but I'll go ahead and share it.  The thought is that there isn't another 'dimension' which is called heaven.  Whatever you, the neurosurgeon and others have experienced...I think it does have to do with loss of oxygen to the brain...but that is really what death is...everyone dies from the same thing...loss of oxygen to the brain.  With that in mind:
My thought is that there isn't another dimension per say in which 'heaven' exists.  It is happening all the time right here, right now, right in front of us...but we are blind to it, completely and totally blind to it because of our 'conscious' state.  It is like being in a room with several people talking at once...you are engaged in conversation and can't hear anyone else speaking because you are really hearing only yourself.   When we take away the barriers of consciousness...we are able to see what is already there, that which we are blinded to by our conscious states.  Does that make any sense to you?

Edited by joc, 11 October 2012 - 06:03 PM.

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now i know that light is old and stars are cold

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#54    JGirl

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostSuper-Fly, on 10 October 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Yeah, sounds legit....

Back to making chess pieces from unicorn bones.

Thanks,
this made me laugh


#55    JGirl

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:29 PM

the term NDE stands for NEAR death experience, not A death experience, so techinically it's referring to someone who didn't actually have to die to experience it. they NEARLY died.
i would like to clarify that for those who are stuck on the semantics of what death is, as the subject didn't in fact die in the first place.


#56    Taun

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:33 PM

The best anyone could possibly do would be to present evidence of Heaven (or any other type of post life existance)... The only way to collect PROOF of Heaven would be to actually fully die - stay dead - and go there... No way to bring proof back...

Edited by Taun, 11 October 2012 - 06:34 PM.


#57    joc

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:43 PM

View PostTaun, on 11 October 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

The best anyone could possibly do would be to present evidence of Heaven (or any other type of post life existance)... The only way to collect PROOF of Heaven would be to actually fully die - stay dead - and go there... No way to bring proof back...
The OBEs and NDEs are not true death.   However;  there are many, many instances of people having NDEs and the commonality of things they talked about while they were unconscious is quite astounding.  If we can just get past the It wasn't dead and buried so it wasnt dead thinking and move on to the common ground of NDEs then perhaps we can speculate as to what might happen when one is...deader'n hell.

Edited by joc, 11 October 2012 - 06:44 PM.

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now i know that light is old and stars are cold

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#58    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:48 PM

As to the encountering "dead people," in many of the subjects that "might" be explained by the fact that the mind is causing a hallucination that one is dead and so providing hallucinations that the mind would equate to death. Therefore it would only engage with "dead people."

If you suddenly saw your wife or your best friend, both of who are very much alive, then your brain would know that you aren't dead.

Also, in nearly all NDEs that happen to children, no "dead people" are encountered. That is easily explained by the fact that the children rarely know anyone who has died, so if the mind upon death is wired to provide a comforting scenario it would have no "dead people" to provide.

On the other hand, if it is a real spiritual event, even though the child's grant parents or great grand parents have likely already died, the child would have not known them or barely known them so a "stranger" appearing would not necessarily provide comfort.

One thing about NDEs, although there are many very common aspects to the literally thousands of reported NDEs, they are not all alike and, at best, just share "many" of the common themes.

What I have taken away from having read at least 250 different reports of NDE is that EITHER the human brain provides a comforting "hallucination" at the time of death (which is absolutely not backed by years of scientific research trying to prove that's what happens) or "God" provides each individual with the scenario upon death that is most comforting and pertinent to that person.

The second scenario is profoundly backed up by study of numerous mystics and their extensive writings about what happens when they "go beyond death" in meditation (or trance) and they travel the many different "spiritual dimensions." Mystics such as Kabir and Nanak, and in modern times Sawan Singh, along with dozens of others have provided much writing of their experiences.

Like NDEs, those dimensions, which are vastly more spectacular than anything experienced by NDEs (the NDE experience is very minor in comparison), the mystical experiences that have happened for centuries, are very similar in many ways, yet very different in others.


#59    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostJGirl, on 11 October 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

the term NDE stands for NEAR death experience, not A death experience, so techinically it's referring to someone who didn't actually have to die to experience it. they NEARLY died.
i would like to clarify that for those who are stuck on the semantics of what death is, as the subject didn't in fact die in the first place.

Once again, it is "near death" only because they were revived. From a scientific perspective "death" is "final." According to the definition of death, if a person is revived then they never died.

Baseball star Ted Williams has been dead for many many years. Of that there is no doubt. But his family has his head cryogenically frozen. If science ever develops a way to reanimate a deceased person he will be brought back to life (him and many others who are frozen).

If that happens, then according to the definition of death, he was never dead. It wasn't "final." You people hung up on the definition of death can then spend years claiming he was never dead, and by definition will be right, just like you are in the near-death experiences.

But people who believe in a 'soul," whether through faith or because via mystical practices they have proof positive of its existence, define death as that moment when the soul leaves the human body and begins traveling to the "heavens" of different dimensions.

To those people Ted Williams is very dead. His head has been removed from his body. He has been dead for about 20 years. If he is brought back from the dead 5 years from now you will be able to say he was never dead. But Ted Williams, and countless others will know that he was in fact dead. Maybe not by the scientific definition, but by "reality."


#60    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:13 PM

View PostDr. D, on 11 October 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Bottom line . . . near death is exactly what it says . . . . it is not death.  Whatever experience it provides cannot be equated to whatever happens (if anything) after death.

I'm sorry, but unless you yourself have experienced "death," you have absolutely no idea if this is true. None. This is all in your mind and it is your ego driving you to believe you "know."

Unless you have experienced death you have no earthly idea if what these people have experienced is far different from, or exactly like, what happens at death.

The only argument is whether what these people have experienced is "death." Not a scientific definition of "death" but by sharing identical experiences of what happens to those who have died.

And, unless we can dig up people from their graves and speak to them, there is no way of knowing if these experiences are or aren't identical. Instead we have to use whatever else is available in order to try to determine whether this is "real" or just a hallucination.

And hundreds, maybe even thousands, of well-qualified researchers are devoted to getting to the bottom of this. And that well-respected Harvard neurologist says that so far there is NOTHING that scientifically can explain this. Nothing.

if you have some expertise that can explain this to all the researchers, please share it with them instead of with a few anonymous posters on an Internet message board.

Meanwhile feel free to keep sharing YOUR :"opinion" but know that this is nothing more than that, despite what you want to believe.





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