56 replies to this topic

[Bavarian Raven]

Quote

while i agree that one has the right to protect home and property, not to mention family, i think there is a line that needs to be drawn as to what is acceptable aggression and what is 'overkill'.
you never need to kill someone who is stealing your china. or your tv. really.
you can get an alarm system, you can get a big dog, you can fortify the entries in your home. all of these things are excellent deterrants to break ins.
if you own a gun and you hear a noise in your house and you pull that gun out to go investigate you have already decided you are going to shoot someone. maybe it's not a conscious thought, but your finger is ready and you know it. it could be someone who is going to rape and kill your family but it's more likely the crack head kid down the street that saw your tv from the street one day.
most who will break into your home only want your stuff. will you kill for your stuff?
i would not.

But the fact of the matter is, the moment they decided to break into your house, etc, a person should have a right (at least, if we truly are free people and not modern day serfs, lol) to defend their lives, their family and friends lives, and property, using whatever force they deem necessary. Now does this mean you can capture and torture said criminal? heck no. but a person should not have to be in fear of the law for defending their property/belongings nor their lives/friends/families lives. The second a criminal breaks in, if any injury befalls them, it should be on their head alone and not the homeowners imho.

[Hasina]

JGirl, on 11 October 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

while i agree that one has the right to protect home and property, not to mention family, i think there is a line that needs to be drawn as to what is acceptable aggression and what is 'overkill'.
you never need to kill someone who is stealing your china. or your tv. really.
you can get an alarm system, you can get a big dog, you can fortify the entries in your home. all of these things are excellent deterrants to break ins.
if you own a gun and you hear a noise in your house and you pull that gun out to go investigate you have already decided you are going to shoot someone. maybe it's not a conscious thought, but your finger is ready and you know it. it could be someone who is going to rape and kill your family but it's more likely the crack head kid down the street that saw your tv from the street one day.
most who will break into your home only want your stuff. will you kill for your stuff?
i would not.

I would, oh heck yeah I would. I worked for it, I paid for it. They're entering my house, breaking into my house to grab my things and then make off with it with no repercussions? No, heck no. And when one owns a gun, they usually have been properly trained (I have been at the very least) I have been taught you have the weapon first and foremost as a deterrent, your finger is off the trigger, your goal isn't to shoot but to frighten. If I find out, oh hey, it's my dad who forgot his keys and was too lazy to call me to unlock the door, I won't fire, but if it's the crack head from the down the street looking to pawn my TV, you bet your sweet butt I'm shooting. My property, my stuff, you just walked into the danger zone. Population, dead burglars.

[Rafterman]

Bling, on 10 October 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

This is not a good idea....when you're being robbed and are in that emotionally charged situation people can go overboard, not be in control of their actions. Robbery is wrong but no one deserves to get seriously injured or killed.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the European mentality and why they will never understand why self defense is such an important issue in the United States.  If you don't have the option to defend yourself, then you are allowing the intruder to decide whether or not you and your family live or die.  Sure, maybe he just wants your IPad, but maybe not.  Apparently you're comfortable with him being able to make that decision, I am not.

Congratulations to Mr. Grayling and to the people of Britain.

Edited by Rafterman, 11 October 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[JGirl]

Hasina, on 11 October 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

I would, oh heck yeah I would. I worked for it, I paid for it. They're entering my house, breaking into my house to grab my things and then make off with it with no repercussions? No, heck no. And when one owns a gun, they usually have been properly trained (I have been at the very least) I have been taught you have the weapon first and foremost as a deterrent, your finger is off the trigger, your goal isn't to shoot but to frighten. If I find out, oh hey, it's my dad who forgot his keys and was too lazy to call me to unlock the door, I won't fire, but if it's the crack head from the down the street looking to pawn my TV, you bet your sweet butt I'm shooting. My property, my stuff, you just walked into the danger zone. Population, dead burglars.

note to self:
do not rob hasina's place...

i agree as well that a gun owner should know what they're doing, but the fact is that many (too many) do not. you sound like a responsible knowledgeable person where gun operation is concerned, as for your attitude toward your property and all that, well who am i to say. it's your stuff afterall.
as for my stuff...
other than personal items that no one but me would find any value in, i attach no more importance to my 'things' than that they give me pleasure. i certainly earned them and paid for them but i also realize that not everyone is going to respect that, so i have insurance. if you steal my stuff i get new stuff. no problem for me.

[Junior Chubb]

That's a bit of a sweeping statement for a whole continent...

Rafterman, on 11 October 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Ladies and Gentlemen, the European mentality and why they will never understand why self defense is such an important issue in the United States.

Fair play, Europeans may not understand the mentality of another country, especially in this situation. There are many areas of 'mentality' where people of different continents struggle to understand each others actions or opinions.

Quote

If you don't have the option to defend yourself, then you are allowing the intruder to decide whether or not you and your family live or die.  Sure, maybe he just wants your IPad, but maybe not.  Apparently you're comfortable with him being able to make that decision, I am not.

This just seems narrow minded and almost like a direct insult. This statement is flawed by the same lack of understanding that leads to the first part of your statement being acceptable.

Are you deliberately provoking a response with your statement, because it is definitely the most blinkered opinion I have seen you post on here, especially considering you usually post a well measured response.

[Michelle]

Junior Chubb, on 11 October 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

That's a bit of a sweeping statement for a whole continent...

Fair play, Europeans may not understand the mentality of another country, especially in this situation. There are many areas of 'mentality' where people of different continents struggle to understand each others actions or opinions.

It's an attitude that we've seen quite often, with people getting downright hostile, about what happens in a country they don't even live in. It has made us a little defensive.

What people, from other countries, fail to realize is that our thieves are very violent and usually have guns. When someone breaks into your house you don't ask questions, because the majority of the time they will kill you as soon as look at you. They don't like to leave witnesses. Our poor, underprivileged minors still manage to find enough money to buy an illegal gun and know they won't spend much time in jail when caught...if they are caught.

Edited by Michelle, 11 October 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Junior Chubb]

Michelle, on 11 October 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

It's an attitude that we've seen quite often, with people getting downright hostile, about what happens in a country they don't even live in. It has made us a little defensive.

What people, from other countries, fail to realize is that our thieves are very violent and usually have guns. When someone breaks into your house you don't ask questions, because the majority of the time they will kill you as soon as look at you. They don't like to leave witnesses. Our poor, underprivileged minors still manage to find enough money to buy an illegal gun and know they won't spend much time in jail when caught.

So what we have here is another 'failure to realise', but this time the boot is on the other foot?

It seems wrong to complain that 'people, from other countries, fail to realize' when defending a similar failure. I also do not see any defence in the comment I quoted.

Edited by Junior Chubb, 11 October 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[JGirl]

Bavarian Raven, on 11 October 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

But the fact of the matter is, the moment they decided to break into your house, etc, a person should have a right (at least, if we truly are free people and not modern day serfs, lol) to defend their lives, their family and friends lives, and property, using whatever force they deem necessary. Now does this mean you can capture and torture said criminal? heck no. but a person should not have to be in fear of the law for defending their property/belongings nor their lives/friends/families lives. The second a criminal breaks in, if any injury befalls them, it should be on their head alone and not the homeowners imho.

i agree the person should have the right. i'm proposing that there should be a defined line in place as to what is self defense and what is unnecessary aggression.
if you break into my house and i whack you with a frying pan and cause you harm or even death accidentally one could say well yeah they grabbed what was handy to defend themselves. same even if it were a gun if i happened to have one.
if you break into my house and i put an entire clip of bullets into your face, one could say well that was a bit uncalled for.

Edited by JGirl, 11 October 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Michelle]

Junior Chubb, on 11 October 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

So what we have here is another 'failure to realise', but this time the boot is on the other foot?

It seems wrong to complain that 'people, from other countries, fail to realize' when defending a similar failure. I also do not see any defence in the comment I quoted.

I was merely explaining why I think he reacted the way he did. Every time there is a mass shooting, by some deranged idiot, we have to hear about the what is wrong with the American gun mentality and how wrong we all are. Then the entire thread blows into dozens of pages of how ignorant we  are and what we should do. It happens in every thread that involves a gun in the US.

I would advise anyone to google "violent home invasions" to see how dangerous "I'll hit them with a frying pan" sort of attitude is.

Edited by Michelle, 11 October 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[Junior Chubb]

Michelle, on 11 October 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I was merely explaining why I think he reacted the way he did. Every time there is a mass shooting, by some deranged idiot, we have to hear about the what is wrong with the American gun mentality and how wrong we all are. Then the entire thread blows into dozens of pages of how ignorant we  are and what we should do. It happens in every thread that involves a gun in the US.

I appreciate that is what you were trying to explain. I have seen the attacks on American culture in the situations you mention, I have questioned it myself but hopefully in a more constructive manner.

I just don't think it is a relevant defence for the comment I quoted. Forgive me if I'm wrong or for putting words into your mouth, but its sounds like your reasoning is 'You call us that in other threads, so we can call you this in this thread'. In this thread we are better of without the 'you' and 'us'...

or should that be EU and US

Edited by Junior Chubb, 11 October 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[JGirl]

Michelle, on 11 October 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

I was merely explaining why I think he reacted the way he did. Every time there is a mass shooting, by some deranged idiot, we have to hear about the what is wrong with the American gun mentality and how wrong we all are. Then the entire thread blows into dozens of pages of how ignorant we  are and what we should do. It happens in every thread that involves a gun in the US.

I would advise anyone to google "violent home invasions" to see how dangerous "I'll hit them with a frying pan" sort of attitude is.

uh just so ya know
i was using the frying pan example almost tongue in cheek. you put whatever you like in that space if a cast iron projectile is not scary enough for ya

Edited by JGirl, 11 October 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[Michelle]

If you'll notice, I'm never one to bring divisiveness between groups, Junior, and I don't believe I was doing it now. Pronouns are a part of the English language and it's not any different when I say my husband will never understand my family. It's just the way things are sometimes.

Edited by Michelle, 11 October 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[Junior Chubb]

Michelle, on 11 October 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

If you'll notice, I'm never one to bring divisiveness between groups, Junior, and I don't believe I was doing it now. Pronouns are a part of the English language and it's not any different when I say my husband will never understand my family. It's just the way things are sometimes.

I have noticed that, I also know your comments were made as a defence rather than attack.

[Bling]

I have read the responses to my opinion and I'd just like to ask how many people have been in the situation of being in your home while you we're broken into? I have been there and I feel my best response was to 'flight' because when threatened we all have a flight or flight instinct. Unless you've been there you don't know how you will react.  Yes if someone attacked me I would fight back but I would not confront an intruder because I feel they don't care about the consequences they just have an aim and they don't care who's in the way. Victims end up in a worse condition - they always lose one way or another. Kill or be killed? Of course I would defend myself but I feel the new law could be opening a can of worms.

[HeartsAreForBreaking]

Render, on 11 October 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Do most burglars come armed in the US, Hasina?

Surprisingly enough I don't think they do; I shared an apartment with a roommate years ago and we lived in such a crappy part of town, we had 3 break ins and the worst offender pulled a very large knife, but no firearms in those incidents. I think there are valid arguments and cases in practice for each side of this debate, but yes I also believe personal arming to some degree should be allowed guns or no guns. And I don't know if this has crossed anyone else's mind(s), but personally I'm a little bit nicer to that jerk who cuts me off or the extremely rude person walking down the street, because you don't know whether they're carrying something and if they have a hair-line trigger for it.