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Contradictions in the bible


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#211    Doug1o29

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:13 PM

View Postscowl, on 07 January 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Jefferson did that and he prospered.
Touche'.

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"Christian atheists"? Do they hang out with the flat-Earth astronauts?
Christian atheists do not believe in god, but do adhere to the good parts of the Christian legend - such as, the Sermon on the Mount.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#212    Doug1o29

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostNuke_em, on 04 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Edit : Well if you believe that a man can split sea in half and listening to burning bushs talk or giant hands in the sky .... yep 100% just a fairytale with huge amount of power behind it... oh dont forget the bloodshed :)
I have posted the basis for the "Red Sea Crossing" on this very thread.  A little ol' Indian Ocean hurricane can generate more than enough energy to blow the ford clean of water and create the seiche/surge waves needed for the "walls of water."  It wasn't a man - it was a hurricane (They're called "cyclones" in the Inidan Ocean.).

There are a number of explanations about how a bush can "burn" without being consumed.  I don't much like any of them.  All of them forget that burning requires an ignition source and if "Moses" had provided one, he wouldn't see it as a miracle.  This incident is part of the story only because the story line requires a reason for "Moses" to leave Sinai and return to Egypt.  The story wouldn't hold together without some such device and the burning bush conveniently provides one.
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If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#213    doppleganger2015

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:17 PM

:tu:


#214    Ellapennella

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 08 January 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

You're quite correct, no one has seen God's face.  God is a spirit entity and to see him in full glory would be fatal for mere humans.  However, in the guise of angels and human form, God has visited humans from time to time (the special Old Testament character known as "the Angel of the Lord" is worth a study if you're interested).
Yes that sounds interesting . I've started to learn or become more aware of some things lately that are so weird and strange  to explain  to anyone . i feel like i sound strange and weird just talking about it. It seems that Angels of God the Holy ones are more hidden ,  unseen but there's another type of form that is associated with UFO's that some people are explaining and showing up on infarred video that these beings exist.They ofetn reveal themselves in holograms like ,always with light  and shadows but they are unlike a regular shadow because they're seen shapeshifting and moving. It's all really strange and i wonder if they are the fallen ones and if they appear like that because they have no host no body and maybe even no real main purpose any longer.
From what I've gathered so far in my understanding of these things is that ; UFO's and these beings are connected  and not all ufo's are actualy of material substance  that these beings seem to appear along side with, it's more like a light source, an energy that these things   need or something, maybe to exist ?It's all really weird.It's  said that these things are appearing more and more and are being recorded  by researchers all over the world. I guess with technology being more advanced people are discovering more ways to be clever in seeing them same thing with ghosts or whatever..But  I wonder,  if they're the fallen angels ?...

The angel of the lord that you're talking about, is that Michael ? and if so, I heard that some people say that Michael is really Jesus or that Jesus is really that angel Michael.Is that who the angel of the lord is that you mentioned?

Edited by Reann, 08 January 2013 - 04:49 PM.


#215    Ellapennella

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 08 January 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

I have posted the basis for the "Red Sea Crossing" on this very thread.  A little ol' Indian Ocean hurricane can generate more than enough energy to blow the ford clean of water and create the seiche/surge waves needed for the "walls of water."  It wasn't a man - it was a hurricane (They're called "cyclones" in the Inidan Ocean.).

There are a number of explanations about how a bush can "burn" without being consumed.  I don't much like any of them.  All of them forget that burning requires an ignition source and if "Moses" had provided one, he wouldn't see it as a miracle.  This incident is part of the story only because the story line requires a reason for "Moses" to leave Sinai and return to Egypt.  The story wouldn't hold together without some such device and the burning bush conveniently provides one.
Doug
Was it actually the Red sea or was it a misinterpretation of transferring the language ? I hear some say it was the sea of reeds not the red sea. I don't know though.But,  that direction of the sea of  reeds leads to some mountain  and place that Moses describes in the bible. All the landmarks are present. I actually heard this about maybe 10 years or so ago while  listening to John Haggee one day.. He actually had sent a team of researchers out there to uncover some things about it , i guess the translation aspect didn't sit well with him and  so  being that he was more than able to afford the cost of sending a team there to research it, he did.What they found was pretty evident that it could of been The Sea of Reeds and not The Red Sea.


#216    Ellapennella

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 08 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Touche'.

Christian atheists do not believe in god, but do adhere to the good parts of the Christian legend - such as, the Sermon on the Mount.
Doug
Um , this can not be. There simply just isn't any connection with Christian and athesit , other than they both are totally opposite. You must know that though.
If you're referring to  "some of"  the Christian priniciples being practiced by athesist that's more understanding other than that, there is no such thing as a Christian atheist. I would have to refer to that person as a fake, a poser or something , but not a Christian.Actually, I find that to be more so hurtful than insulting to read what you wrote because to know Christ in your heart you would know better than to say something like that or to  suggest that a christian atheist is something respectful to say being that it's  completley  opposite of everything Christ taught in being a Christian...There is no such thing as a Christian athesit.Either one is a Christian or not.

Edited by Reann, 08 January 2013 - 05:00 PM.


#217    scowl

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 08 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Christian atheists do not believe in god, but do adhere to the good parts of the Christian legend - such as, the Sermon on the Mount.

So they believe Jesus was a complete fraud, yet follow his teachings? I would call that hypocrisy.


#218    Ellapennella

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:11 PM

View Postscowl, on 08 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

So they believe Jesus was a complete fraud, yet follow his teachings? I would call that hypocrisy.
Well, a lot of people  believe in Christian principles that are atheist, they even will send their children to Sunday school to be taught by Christians , yet they themselves do not believe in God or Christ. But they allow for Christians to help raise their children by sending them to Christian schools and to church. I see this a lot and know of people that do that. I personally have not been to church in a long time and i sort of miss it but don't really like being around churchy people , if that makes any sense ahaha...I do enjoy listening to a friend of mine at work share stories of what her pastor talks about with them. She's catholic and yet, this pastor sounds really cool, really interesting. Like one time he told them to find their Guardian Angel by closing their eyes in a quiet room alone and asking in a whisper for their angel to reveal it's name to them, he said that the first name that appears in their mind is the name of their guardian. I don't know though , but when i listen to her , i can't help but to feel that this catholic pastor sounds sort of new agey to me. Just yesterday she was sharing with me that he gave an   euphony on the three wise men and said they were astrologers( which they were) he said that it took them years to travel to where Christ was born and I suppose that's how they all crossed paths. That's something I think I like to look into a bit more. But they were astrologers and they knew a very special important life changing birth was going to happen.

Edited by Reann, 08 January 2013 - 05:14 PM.


#219    Doug1o29

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostReann, on 08 January 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Was it actually the Red sea or was it a misinterpretation of transferring the language ? I hear some say it was the sea of reeds not the red sea. I don't know though.But,  that direction of the sea of  reeds leads to some mountain  and place that Moses describes in the bible. All the landmarks are present. I actually heard this about maybe 10 years or so ago while  listening to John Haggee one day.. He actually had sent a team of researchers out there to uncover some things about it , i guess the translation aspect didn't sit well with him and  so  being that he was more than able to afford the cost of sending a team there to research it, he did.What they found was pretty evident that it could of been The Sea of Reeds and not The Red Sea.
The crossing was a ford in the narrows between the Bitter Lakes at El Kubrit.  At low water, it was maybe eighteen inches deep and during a southeast wind, it would have been dry.

This all takes a bit of explaining.  The Heroopolitic Red Sea was actually an ephemeral lake 20 miles wide and 60 miles long, stretching from just west of Ismailia (Shur) to a sandstone sill at Shalufa.  The sill was 4.5 feet above modern sea level and acted as a dam.  The Canal of the Pharaoh emptied into Lake Timsah which was a low-water part of the Heroopolitic Red Sea.  When enough water ran through the canal, it raised water levels so that the lake filled and the surplus water flowed through Tiah beni-Israel to the Gulf of Suez.  When the canal was not operating, the lake dried up, leaving a dry salt pan where Lake Timsah is now and two much smaller lakes (the Bitter Lakes) in their current locations, but with water levels six feet below what they are now.

Sea levels have risen and fallen through the millenia so that about 1750 BC and again about 1000 BC sea level came within inches of the top of the sill.  At these times, a spring tide or a storm surge could flow over the sill and fill the Heroopolitic Red Sea with salt water.  During the Roman Period, about 250-300 AD, sea level over-topped the sill, filling the lake with salt water.

At the time of the "Exodus," the Heroopolitic Red Sea was dry and the Bitter Lakes were at their natural water level of six feet below sea level.  Had there been fresh water in them, there would have been no need to spend three days in the wilderness without water, as the "Exodus" could simply have followed the shore all the way to Suez.  There is a papyrus report from an officer at Merneptah's Fort (probably Tell er Reteba) saying he had allowed some "Shosu" to pass the fort to water their animals at the "Pools of Pithom" (the now-defunct Lake Kemuera).  This was maybe 20 years before the "Ramesside Exodus"; the canal was inoperable at the time.  We know there was no salt water in the lake because they stayed at a spring on the edge of the Suez Desert.  That was Bir Fuwara (sp?), about 3 miles east of the old lake shore.  They would have had to cross the salt pan to get to it.

The Canal of the Pharaoh served as a crocodile-filled mote ("Timsah" means "Crocodile.").  It also supplied water to the frontier fort at Tjel.  In building the northern branch of the canal, the Egyptians ran the water into a natural depression to save themselves several miles of digging.  That became Lake Balah, also known as "The Papyrus Swamp."  The name "Sea of Reeds" may have come from there.  Lake Balah was completely dug up in building the Suez Canal.  It is no more.  And it wasn't very big, anyway.  Pursuers would have no trouble riding along the shore and overtaking their quarry on the far side.

But any of the six lakes across the Isthmus of Suez could have been "the Sea of Reeds."  Lake Timsah, Lake Balah and the Bitter Lakes were fresh when the canal was in operation.  The others each got enough fresh water to dilute the salt enough that papyrus could survive (Papyrus requires that water contain no more than 1.5% salt; sea water has 3%.).  Enough fresh water may have reached the Gulf of Suez that papyrus could grow there.  There are reports of it doing so an ancient times.  There are a lot of possibilities for "the Sea of Reeds."  There is also the possibility that "Sea of Reeds" was a pun - the Bible has a lot of those.  It could have been simultaneously a reference to a reedy place, Pharaoh's demise and the end of a journey.  Now you have lots of possibilities to choose from.

But only El Kubrit has a channel mouth (Pi-hahiroth), a watch tower (Migdol; Gebel Geneifa) and a temple (Baal Zephon; Gebel Seipha).  The campsite was on the west shore at what is now an airport (Check GoogleEarth; you can see the runways.).  AND Gebel Seipha is in the right direction for an "east" wind to blow from it to the crossing site and clear the water.
Doug

Edited by Doug1o29, 08 January 2013 - 07:39 PM.

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The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#220    Doug1o29

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:35 PM

View PostReann, on 08 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Um , this can not be. There simply just isn't any connection with Christian and athesit , other than they both are totally opposite. You must know that though.
If you're referring to  "some of"  the Christian priniciples being practiced by athesist that's more understanding other than that, there is no such thing as a Christian atheist. I would have to refer to that person as a fake, a poser or something , but not a Christian.Actually, I find that to be more so hurtful than insulting to read what you wrote because to know Christ in your heart you would know better than to say something like that or to  suggest that a christian atheist is something respectful to say being that it's  completley  opposite of everything Christ taught in being a Christian...There is no such thing as a Christian athesit.Either one is a Christian or not.
You can call them anything you want to, but I know several people who do not believe in god, yet believe that the story of Jesus upholds an exemplary life style.  Some believe that Jesus actually lived and some just don't know.  None believe he was a god.

The evidence that there even was a Jesus is beyond flimsy.  The Synoptic Gospels were written over a century after the biblical version of Jesus was executed.  No contemporary writer claims to have seen him (Not even Saint Paul, who may be mythical, himself.).  The only evidence is the writing of Papias, Bishop of Hieronymous, who laments that there are no written accounts of Jesus' life.  He also says he had "the words of John ringing in my ears."  In other words, he heard John speak.  He also tells a story which is not in the Bible that he says he got from "the daughters of Philip."  He is the only witness to any of the apostles and there are none who say they saw Jesus.

There were other Christian writings floating around before the modern gospels:  Clement of Rome tells the story of the woman who poured oil on Jesus, but the details are different - he is quoting a different source.

So, yes.  One can be an agnostic or an atheist, not believe in any god, yet still think the character depicted in the gospels, though fictional, is worthy of admiration.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#221    Ellapennella

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:59 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 08 January 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

You can call them anything you want to, but I know several people who do not believe in god, yet believe that the story of Jesus upholds an exemplary life style.  Some believe that Jesus actually lived and some just don't know.  None believe he was a god.

The evidence that there even was a Jesus is beyond flimsy.  The Synoptic Gospels were written over a century after the biblical version of Jesus was executed.  No contemporary writer claims to have seen him (Not even Saint Paul, who may be mythical, himself.).  The only evidence is the writing of Papias, Bishop of Hieronymous, who laments that there are no written accounts of Jesus' life.  He also says he had "the words of John ringing in my ears."  In other words, he heard John speak.  He also tells a story which is not in the Bible that he says he got from "the daughters of Philip."  He is the only witness to any of the apostles and there are none who say they saw Jesus.

There were other Christian writings floating around before the modern gospels:  Clement of Rome tells the story of the woman who poured oil on Jesus, but the details are different - he is quoting a different source.

So, yes.  One can be an agnostic or an atheist, not believe in any god, yet still think the character depicted in the gospels, though fictional, is worthy of admiration.
Doug
I do believe that there's evidence . But I also believe that there are people who will refute it just because they have no faith and can not , do not or refuse to understand  faith.
I said to you that they are either Christian or not because a christian can not be both , a Christian and an atheist .. that's just impossible.


#222    Doug1o29

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:38 PM

View PostReann, on 08 January 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I do believe that there's evidence . But I also believe that there are people who will refute it just because they have no faith and can not , do not or refuse to understand  faith.
I said to you that they are either Christian or not because a christian can not be both , a Christian and an atheist .. that's just impossible.
There's evidence - just not very much of it.  And there's evidence to the contrary - a lot.  But still, legends and urban myths get started somehow and there's usually a kernel of truth in there somewhere.

Christian - atheist.  Semantics.  I'm trying to present an idea I don't necessarily agree with (I'd make a terrible attorney.).  Personally, if a person says they're a Christian, I have to take them at their word.  You can define them however you want, but they are what they are.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#223    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:25 AM

View Posteight bits, on 08 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Hi, PA
Hi 8bits, haven't spoken in a while, it seems.  I've been reading your posts though, as informative as ever :tu:


View Posteight bits, on 08 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

What do you make of that being a pagan theme as well?
It does not surprise me.  Religions don't form in a vacuum, but instead are influenced by that which is happening around them.


View Posteight bits, on 08 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Also, although the focus of your remark is the Jewish take on the matter, what do you make of the Christian idea of theosis (the desirable outcome for the secure majority of Nicene Christians, also described as "The beatific vision" in the West, that is, by the Roman Catholics)?

Isn't the theory there a "contradiction?" All Nicene Christans believe that at least the righteous will see God in the flesh, not just as a spirit being encountering a greater Spirit Being. The same idea is also believed to have been a Pharisaic Jewish opinion about the end of days.

That in turn squares with the Genesis image of unfallen (and recently fallen, but benefitting from Solomonic discernment) humanity dealing with God face-to-face. The reconciling idea seems to be that the resurrected body is a restoration of the preternatural, prelapsarian state.
One approach to your question is that you answered it in your final sentence by appealing to pre-Fall pre-sinful humanity and that this pre-Fall state renders us righteous enough to see God.  However, that's not the only way to answer it.  The various theories concerning Eschatology are inescapably varied, and for you to refer to "all Nicene Christians" feels strained.  For example, a Christian who fervently expects the "Rapture" to include them avoiding the tribulations of the End as he is taken up into the sky to be with Jesus only to come back later to experience a thousand years of peace, well they'd have a very different idea about meeting God than someone else who doesn't believe in a Rapture at all, and instead believes we are already in the Millennium spoken of in Revelation, and all we await is the return of Jesus to usher in a new heaven and new earth. Both examples here could very well be defined as Nicene Christians but have wildly different ideas about when they would meet God.

Getting right down to it, no one knows for certain what will happen.  Revelation is far too easy to interpret to fit a heap of different ideas, so instead of suggesting that you are right or wrong, I'll simply answer that I do not know.  I personally believe in a theory called Amillennialism, which I have a feeling I've discussed with you in the past, but I also admit I could be wrong. We don't know, as a Christian all I can say for certain is that it will happen however God has planned it out to happen.

Hope this is of some help :tu:

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 09 January 2013 - 05:48 AM.

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#224    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:40 AM

View PostReann, on 08 January 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Yes that sounds interesting . I've started to learn or become more aware of some things lately that are so weird and strange  to explain  to anyone . i feel like i sound strange and weird just talking about it. It seems that Angels of God the Holy ones are more hidden ,  unseen but there's another type of form that is associated with UFO's that some people are explaining and showing up on infarred video that these beings exist.They ofetn reveal themselves in holograms like ,always with light  and shadows but they are unlike a regular shadow because they're seen shapeshifting and moving. It's all really strange and i wonder if they are the fallen ones and if they appear like that because they have no host no body and maybe even no real main purpose any longer.
From what I've gathered so far in my understanding of these things is that ; UFO's and these beings are connected  and not all ufo's are actualy of material substance  that these beings seem to appear along side with, it's more like a light source, an energy that these things   need or something, maybe to exist ?It's all really weird.It's  said that these things are appearing more and more and are being recorded  by researchers all over the world. I guess with technology being more advanced people are discovering more ways to be clever in seeing them same thing with ghosts or whatever..But  I wonder,  if they're the fallen angels ?...
I don't think we can know for certain.  I believe there is a spirit-world out there that humans are normally not able to see, and that some people are gifted with an ability to at least get a glimpse of what is there.  I don't necessarily agree with you about your theory on UFO's and ghosts and such, but that's not really central to the discussion.


View PostReann, on 08 January 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

The angel of the lord that you're talking about, is that Michael ? and if so, I heard that some people say that Michael is really Jesus or that Jesus is really that angel Michael.Is that who the angel of the lord is that you mentioned?
The Angel of the Lord is never given an actual name.  Some traditions do suggest that it is Michael.  And yes, some theories suggest that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus.  Theory and tradition aside, what we know is what is said in the Old Testament.  Take the following verse/s as an example:

Quote

Exo 3:1  Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
Exo 3:2  And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.
Exo 3:3  And Moses said, "I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned."
Exo 3:4  When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."
Notice how in verse 2, the famous Burning Bush scene, it is the Angel of the Lord who appeared, but when the figure in the bush actually speaks, it states that God called from the bush.  "The Angel of the Lord" and "the Lord" are interchangeable terms used.  This contrasts to other parts of the Bible where only an ordinary angel is sent by God and doesn't have the authority and interchangeability of the Angel of the Lord.

I personally believe the Angel of the Lord to be Jesus, but I can't be certain.  It's just a theory.  Nevertheless, the Angel of the Lord is a very interesting Old Testament character to study, in my experience and opinion :)

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 09 January 2013 - 03:40 AM.

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#225    eight bits

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:01 AM

Hi, again, PA

Thank you for the kind words.

Quote

The various theories concerning Eschatology are inescapably varied, and for you to refer to "all Nicene Christians" feels strained.

Yes, I agree about varied, but what I attributed to all Nicene Christians was "at least the righteous will see God in the flesh," based upon the Creed's last declarative sentence,

We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

which obviously stems from the earlier Apostle's Creed's statement, similarly placed,

I believe in... the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

While that does leave wiggle room about many details, I think it does put literally all Nicenes on just the hook which I specified. Those who get to see God at all, must do so in the flesh eventually. Or so it would seem from the plain meaning of the words professed, which profession defines the group in question.

So, I think the "contradictory" part stands, that there seems to be a Mosaic tradition about it being impossible for anybody to have seen God as he really is, and another pious tradition that at least two people did just that, to which Christians added that the First Couple's pre-fall situation is the eventual destiny of everybody not excluded for some cause from experiencing God's presence.

"Contradictions" don't much bother me - even if I were a believer, I wouldn't be a literal inerrantist. But it does seem to me that the traditions being documented are incompatible, and that it is fair to point that out.

Edited by eight bits, 09 January 2013 - 11:01 AM.

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