39 replies to this topic

[the L]

Hello UMers.

Maybe this thread needs to be placed in science but since I want to ask spiritual and ET questions I decide its best to put it into Modern Mysteries.
I read once that researchers doing tests about quantum connection between person and person spitt. That they are not toghether but somehow connected. That man spits in one room and enter in another and then scientists start to puting burned ciggarets in mens spit and that they observed reaction in human who was in another room.  It was long time ago and I read it in one as I remember wierd Internet site.  
I remember backthen how immidietly Voodoo practice cross my mind. How those Voodoo magicans need hair or nails to curse you. How they put needles in doll with your hair and nails so you become suffering pain.
Recently I start questioning could it be connected somehow, if true, with Holographic universe. Idea that universe is holographic dont mean that our Sun is 2D but that all universe including us is 2D. That we are projection. If we are projection then by whom? By God? By us? By ET?

I search a little and find this site.
http://news.discover...a-hologram.html

quote:
In the early 1990's, University of Florida physicist Charles Thorn conceived the holographic universe hypothesis. In Thorn's view of the Universe, the 3-dimensional world we know and love is actually a hologram projected from the furthest-most reaches of the cosmos. The easiest way to imagine it is that we are contained within the Universe's event horizon and any 3D object we conceive (as 3D objects ourselves) are projected from the event horizon's 2-dimensional "shell." We are basically a projection.

The idea that information is encoded in an event horizon comes from the "black hole paradox," a fascinating debate between heavyweight physicists Kip Thorne, Stephen Hawking and John Preskill:

Information encoded in an event horizon "is born from other well known interpretations of the cosmos, in particularly the black hole paradox. As something falls into a black hole, passing the event horizon, the quantum information held in the event horizon can be encoded to reveal information about the interior. Therefore, the information inside the black hole’s event horizon is not destroyed (for details on this, see the Thorne-Hawking-Preskill bet). If the information about the interior of a black hole is encoded in its event horizon, scientists have come forward to point out that perhaps the information inside our Universe is encoded in the Universe's horizon." -- Astroengine, Jan. 20, 2009
motivated by the odd noise being generated by GEO600 and Thorn's holographic universe idea, Craig Hogan is currently building a souped-up gravitational wave detector with a difference: it's not looking for gravitational waves.

If the Universe is a holographic projection from the universal event horizon, it is predicted that the projection will be fuzzy. Although all the information to create the Universe is "encoded" in Planck-scale "bits" in the universal event horizon, by the time it's projected over billions of light years to our location, these "bits" will have become enlarged -- like the light being emitted from a projector onto a wall.

The smaller scales you probe, the more fuzzy the projection becomes. It's a bit like zooming in on a photograph or magazine text; it becomes less defined and more pixelated the closer you zoom in.

It is this fuzziness that Hogan believes GEO600 is currently seeing as noise, possibly giving Thorn's hypothesis from the early 90's some of its first observational evidence.

So, at Fermilab, Hogan's team has devised a holographic interferometer (or "Holometer," pictured above) that is currently being built to probe even smaller scales than GEO600:

"The holometer attempts a direct experimental test of one form of [the holographic universe] hypothesis. In a Michelson interferometer, a light beam is split into two parts that travel in different directions, then are brought back together. The vibrations of light in the two directions tend to drift apart by about Planck length per Planck time when they are traveling in different directions. When they are recombined, the difference in light phase can be measured. In the holometer, signals from two different interferometers -- that is, two completely separate systems, each with its own pair of beam arms -- are compared. If they are close enough to probe the same volume of spacetime -- that is, if light in both systems is traveling in about the same direction, at about the same time -- their signals should display the same, correlated jitter, sometimes called 'holographic noise.'" -- The Fermilab Holometer website.
What will the Holometer find? Hogan is hoping to see more static, or "jitter."

But what does this mean?

It is doubtful that the human brain could ever fully imagine how a universe is actually a 3-dimensional representation of a 2-dimensional universal event horizon, and it doesn't physically change how we experience our world. Even if this space-time noise is found to persist at smaller and smaller scales, it's not necessarily evidence that the holographic concept is real. Perhaps it's a phenomenon that mathematics or the most advanced physics theory cannot explain (yet).

But it's one hell of a mind-bending idea that will no doubt boost our understanding about how our Universe works on the tiniest of scales.

First I will like that you say your thoughts about possibilty of holographic universe. Then what will that mean if we are all 2D in term of physics, spirituality, ET hypothesis, math?
Thanks in advance.

[the L]

Personally idea that Im projection is scary. I also wonder could that explain astral travel and similar expiriences?

[sepulchrave]

You asked for my opinion on this... honestly I am quite a bit out of my depth here.

I think one should be cautious about attaching the Holographic principle to everyday objects. The basic principle only works (I think) when applied to ``topologically natural boundaries'', which usually mean light-cones or event horizons, or the like. The principle states that all the information necessary to interact with one of these holographic bodies must be encoded on the surface.

This does suggest that the essence of everything is 2D, but I don't think it precludes the existence of 3D - we need 3D space to have 2D surfaces. I think the holographic principle reduces things to ``bubbles'' - i.e. anything important about the contents of a bubble needs to be projected on the surface, so one could equally validly treat the surface of the bubble as the real thing and say it contained nothing.

But, on the other hand, you (or I) are obviously not topologically natural objects, our boundaries are not related to space-time curvature. And on a more fundamental level, electrons in a crystal (silicon, copper, etc.) are defined by 5 quantities: the energy (or band index), three components of crystal momentum, and their spin. You can't project a 3D crystal momentum onto a 2D surface without losing information - and yet the information about electrons in a crystal lattice is readily available by a number of experimental techniques.

I suppose one could argue that the subatomic particles (electrons, quarks, etc.) that make up macroscopic objects are the 2D bubbles, but there isn't much gained by that in my opinion.

I worry that the Holographic principle comes from an attempt to resolve contradictions between the interactions of quantum objects in classical fields - in particular classical fields that are plausibly near a quantum limit (like an event horizon could conceivably be) - when a better approach might be to properly quantize the fields first (of course there hasn't been any success with that yet).

I admit that I am fairly biased in this sort of discussion. I am an experimental physicist, and in particular I study condensed matter and materials. In my opinion, lots of theorists provide lofty philosophies that are based on large, weakly interacting systems (like black holes treated as a single object floating in interstellar space) or very small, discretely interacting systems (like subatomic particles colliding once or twice in an accelerator).

In my opinion, theorists rarely talk about the ramifications of the theories they construct in those settings on real life, i.e. millions of continually, and strongly interacting particles (like electrons in a solid). A black hole in space, or a relativistic particle in an accelerator can have definite surfaces (light cones, event horizons, whatever) - that exist on all length scales. But the surface of an object is very dependent on the scale you are measuring.

In terms of the holographic principle, what is the surface of your body? It probably looks pretty clear to you right now, but if you studied your skin at a micron scale it would look a lot more like a sponge, and on a nanometre scale not only would it be full of holes, you'd have a hard time telling what part was your skin and what part was the atmosphere around you.

The difference between volume and surface is pretty clear-cut for a perfect sphere. What is the difference in a fractal?

[Babe Ruth]

A most interesting subject of discussion.  I read a book with the similar name Holographic Universe, but I can't remember the author's name at the moment.  It does seem to be plausible, for this layman.

Obviously we humans are quite primitive, I suspect, and ignorant of more things than we can imagine.

[the L]

Babe Ruth, on 15 October 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Obviously we humans are quite primitive, I suspect, and ignorant of more things than we can imagine.

Idea that Im projection is scary. But what scare me the most is that some people are affraid to think about it. In fact people are affraid to think like they will get brain tumor from thinking.
But as Einstein said : Small is the number of people who think with their heads and see with their eyes. People will often took others people opinion then question them. Defenition of scepticism is that we question everything. And as I read here on UM recently. Now true sceptics are called conspiracy theorist and sceptics become square people who are scared in essence of their being to think. Todays sceptics like their utopia. Utopia that they know all.

[the L]

Hi Sepulcrave!
Thanks on post and I wanted to hear your thoughts on it even you are not experimental physicist. Neither m I.
I must say Im having problem to understand all you wrote even I know you try from bottom of your heart to explain me well.
And thats isnt about you or language barrier , my bad English. Your knowledge on phsyics is too sophisticated to me.
But Im willing to learn and Im fast learner. I start to thinking to open one thread about Physics where we will have mentor, teacher on one side and others mortals on others side. We will see. I have few mysteries in Physics that are like fary tale the Emperor is naked. Sometime we need naive child view to spot something I guess.
I picked up some things from your post.

What you trying to tell when you said that we cant project 3D crystal momentum on 2D surface without loosing info and that experiments shows info about electrons in crystal lattice? I think I didnt conclude well...

Quote

In terms of the holographic principle, what is the surface of your body? It probably looks pretty clear to you right now, but if you studied your skin at a micron scale it would look a lot more like a sponge, and on a nanometre scale not only would it be full of holes, you'd have a hard time telling what part was your skin and what part was the atmosphere around you.

The difference between volume and surface is pretty clear-cut for a perfect sphere. What is the difference in a fractal?

Yes but because my skin look different from microscope doesnt change thing.(?) Im what Im. Only I see it because my eyes dont allow me to see sponge skin. Why wouldnt my sponge skin be also projection?
Could we all be like Star Trek Hologram?

[the L]

Its like messurment problem, right?

Also I read that there is no time or particles in essence of atom. So we are built out of nothing?

Edited by the L, 15 October 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[the L]

How can it be that when something like electrons are toghether and we separate them energy are still there. They are spearate but they are connected. Like with some spider webs.
And if our expaniding universe is expanding from small ball...then we are connected with Andromeda too?
Atom exists in more then one place in different universes we human exists also in different universes. Parallel universe theory or Parallel electrons.
When we see atom we see it in moment as our eye freeze picture.

Seupul about your fraction link...isnt that search to grasp infinty?

Edited by the L, 15 October 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[the L]

I always consider humans as star kids. Childern of universe. We are carbon based being and carbon is produced in stars. I even link philosophy to it. That we are universe rediscovering it self. That in every one of us is small part of universe. We gain expiriences trough our life and in in end we connect. I know that many myzanthropes wouldnt agree with idea that we will become one as we were once one. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust- could it be that is point? That this is just trip? Journey, Voyage. Dream. There is no death or birth. We are illusions. Im mean in sense we are. We are made of atoms and they are made from nothing. Downthere , there is no particles only links...bonds...

Sepul can you explain me so that I could even understand Double-slit experiment. I read it twice and dont get it.

[the L]

http://holographic-d...e.com/hair.html

Comment

The mammalian body has evolved over millions of years. Survival skills of human and animal at times seem almost supernatural. Science is constantly
coming up with more discoveries about the amazing abilities of man and animal to survive. Each part of the body has highly sensitive work to perform
for the survival and well being of the body as a whole. The body has a reason for every part of itself.

Hair is an extension of the nervous system, it can be correctly seen as exteriorized nerves, a type of highly-evolved ‘feelers’ or ‘antennae’ that transmit
vast amounts of important information to the brainstem, the limbic system, and the neocortex.

Not only does hair in people, including facial hair in men, provide an information highway reaching the brain, hair also emits energy, the
electromagnetic energy emitted by the brain into the outer environment. This has been seen in Kirlian photography when a person is photographed with
long hair and then rephotographed after the hair is cut.

When hair is cut, receiving and sending transmissions to and from the environment are greatly hampered. This results in ‘numbing-out’.

Cutting of hair is a contributing factor to unawareness of environmental distress in local ecosystems. It is also a contributing factor to insensitivity in
relationships of all kinds. It contributes to sexual frustration.

Conclusion

In searching for solutions for the distress in our world, it may be time for us to consider that many of our most basic assumptions about reality are in
error. It may be that a major part of the solution is looking at us in the face each morning when we see ourselves in the mirror.

The story of Sampson and Delilah in the Bible has a lot of encoded truth to tell us. When Delilah cut Sampson\’s hair, the once undefeatable Sampson
was defeated.


ETHER
Every known thought…Every known idea … every invention known to man exists in THE ETHER
“The ether is a great cosmic mass of eternal forces of vibration. It is made up of both destructive vibrations and constructive vibrations.
The space between the planets is very much alive, that it is the highest form of vibration known, the vibrations of THOUGHT.
The Ether is all around us.
We access the ether at will through thinking but some people can access it at higher levels.. which we will discuss in the free e-book.
When Alexander Graham Bell gave us the telephone, he hinted that it had been done before? "The old devices have been reinvented," he observed.

Is anything faster than the speed of light?
Yes, the speed of thought.

[Jeremiah65]

The author of the book "Holographic Universe" is Michael Talbot.  Not a terrible read.  He goes off on tangents here and there and gets "new-agey" and "psuedo-sciency" from time to time but many of his sources are well known and established Doctors and scientists.  I enjoyed the book for what it's worth.

The discussions about the implicate and the explicate is pretty fascinating.  It's hard to explain it to someone who hasn't read the theory so I won't do it the injustice of trying to describe it.  It's worth the 10 bucks or whatever it was when I bought it.  Just bear in mind he does go off a cliff here and there in anecdotal conversation.  However, if you research the scientists and doctors he quotes and illustrates...you won't be disappointed.

[Rlyeh]

the L, on 15 October 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Also I read that there is no time or particles in essence of atom. So we are built out of nothing?

I'm not sure how you got that. Subatomic particles are affected by causality.

[the L]

Jeremiah65, on 15 October 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

The author of the book "Holographic Universe" is Michael Talbot.  Not a terrible read.  He goes off on tangents here and there and gets "new-agey" and "psuedo-sciency" from time to time but many of his sources are well known and established Doctors and scientists.  I enjoyed the book for what it's worth.

The discussions about the implicate and the explicate is pretty fascinating.  It's hard to explain it to someone who hasn't read the theory so I won't do it the injustice of trying to describe it.  It's worth the 10 bucks or whatever it was when I bought it.  Just bear in mind he does go off a cliff here and there in anecdotal conversation.  However, if you research the scientists and doctors he quotes and illustrates...you won't be disappointed.

Can you sum some stuff from book for us?

[tapirmusic]

the L, on 16 October 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

Can you sum some stuff from book for us?

http://www.amazon.co...raphic universe

check it out.

some interesting stuff indeed.  it's an easy read too.

[StarMountainKid]

The maximum amount of information in a region of space is proportional to the area of the region.

From what I understand, according to Leonard Susskind, a black hole's  2D event horizon contains all the information within the black hole encoded just like the 2D surface of a hologram. The black hole event horizon is a scrambled hologram of everything inside.The number of bits of information is equal to the area of the horizon measured in Planck units.

Beyond the black hole event horizon all information is unavailable. It would be the same situation for us in the universe. Our event horizon is that region of space that has expanded beyond our view. All information contained beyond our spacial event horizon is unavailable to us, so the area of our spacial event horizon should contain all information within that volume encoded like the 2D surface of a black hole's horizon.

The universe itself, or the mufti-verse would have an event horizon surrounding it, wouldn't it? Wouldn't this ultimate horizon contain all the information contained in that volume encoded on its 2D surface?

In this sense, would the universe be a hologram?

Edited by StarMountainKid, 17 October 2012 - 03:11 AM.