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Joseph and Akhenaten


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#1    Joe Sniderman

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

It seems to me that the Genesis sub-story of ‘how Joseph saved Egypt from famine’ could provide a simple, yet comprehensive, explanation for the events of the Amarna Period.  I’ve written a paper on the topic:

PDF format: http://mysite.verizo...d Akhenaten.pdf

HTML format: http://mysite.verizo...d Akhenaten.htm


Have I succeeded in making a strong case?


Regards,

Joe


#2    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:34 PM

Thanks for these links. Clearly you have put a lot of thought into your hypothesis. I would like to reply, but first I must complete reading the new book on Amarna by Barry Kemp, so I can better repy. I have one question in the meantime, is your hypothesis generally similar to the book by Graham Phillips "Atlantis and the Ten Plagues of Egypt". I say this only on the basis of a quick flick through, nothing set in stone...

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 17 October 2012 - 02:01 PM.


#3    Joe Sniderman

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:58 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 17 October 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I would like to reply, but first I must complete reading the new book on Amarna by Barry Kemp, so I can better repy.

Thanks for the response.  I will look forward to your reply.

Quote

I have one question in the meantime, is your hypothesis generally similar to the book by Graham Phillips "Atlantis and the Ten Plagues of Egypt".

No, I don't think they have much in common at all.


Regards,
Joe


#4    White Unicorn

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:21 PM

View PostJoe Sniderman, on 15 October 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

It seems to me that the Genesis sub-story of ‘how Joseph saved Egypt from famine’ could provide a simple, yet comprehensive, explanation for the events of the Amarna Period.  I’ve written a paper on the topic:

PDF format: http://mysite.verizo...d Akhenaten.pdf

HTML format: http://mysite.verizo...d Akhenaten.htm


Have I succeeded in making a strong case?


Regards,

Joe

I like this! I think you are doing a good job linking things. It came to me that there may be many links to Moses as well as Joseph and to the Pharohs in those times.
Akhenaten was well known as the first to believe in One higher God and later they wanted him blotted out of history not all of the first pharoh's line so it would make sense.  I got interested when I was researching my geneology and DNA and found lots of surprises going way back when I was researching myths and trying to link the time lines. I didn't have time to research as much as I'd like.   Lots of Egyptian and Hebrew and Mesopotanian myths mesh together but I found it difficult to link the exact time lines.  I'm glad to see others are researching the subject. I saved an interesting "Moses" you may find interesting. Look at that Hebrew nose! LOL   :)

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#5    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:45 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 17 October 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

I like this! I think you are doing a good job linking things. It came to me that there may be many links to Moses as well as Joseph and to the Pharohs in those times.
Akhenaten was well known as the first to believe in One higher God and later they wanted him blotted out of history not all of the first pharoh's line so it would make sense.  I got interested when I was researching my geneology and DNA and found lots of surprises going way back when I was researching myths and trying to link the time lines. I didn't have time to research as much as I'd like.   Lots of Egyptian and Hebrew and Mesopotanian myths mesh together but I found it difficult to link the exact time lines.  I'm glad to see others are researching the subject. I saved an interesting "Moses" you may find interesting. Look at that Hebrew nose! LOL   :)

Are you claiming that Thutmose III is Hebrew because of the shape of his nose? Hooked noses are not a monopoly of any one ethnicity!


#6    kmt_sesh

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:01 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 18 October 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

Are you claiming that Thutmose III is Hebrew because of the shape of his nose? Hooked noses are not a monopoly of any one ethnicity!

Come now, meryt-tetisheri. The caption clearly says Tuthmosis II, not Tuthmosis III. Clearly Tuthmosis II was Hebrew. :w00t:

Well, come to think of it, the ancient Egyptians had a lot of Semitics in their population. Their language was Afro-Semitic. But Semitic describes a wide range of peoples—of whom the Hebrews were (and are) but one.

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and have downloaded and read portions of Joe's paper. There are lots of comments I'd love to make but time is very limited for me this week, and will be for some days to come.

But I might direct Joe to a salient point: there's no proof for the existence of the Hebrews prior to the end of the Bronze Age.

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#7    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:06 AM

Quote

But I might direct Joe to a salient point: there's no proof for the existence of the Hebrews prior to the end of the Bronze Age.

To add to this, there's no evidence of an exodus of some 600,000 people out of Egypt at any point during the New Kingdom.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#8    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:51 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 18 October 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

Come now, meryt-tetisheri. The caption clearly says Tuthmosis II, not Tuthmosis III. Clearly Tuthmosis II was Hebrew. :w00t:

Well, come to think of it, the ancient Egyptians had a lot of Semitics in their population. Their language was Afro-Semitic. But Semitic describes a wide range of peoples—of whom the Hebrews were (and are) but one.

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and have downloaded and read portions of Joe's paper. There are lots of comments I'd love to make but time is very limited for me this week, and will be for some days to come.

But I might direct Joe to a salient point: there's no proof for the existence of the Hebrews prior to the end of the Bronze Age.

My eyes are shot! It's too late here and I'm starting to have double vision it seems

I used 'Hebrew' because it is the word used by White Unicorn, it doesn't seem that 'semitic' is what is referenced in this thread as much as hebrew (Joseph). I am aware that ancient Egyptians and their language were afro-semitic, that the first mention of Israel was in Merneptah's stele, and that there is no evidence of the exodus. I have doubts that a foreign adopted son would have ascended to the throne, or that an Egyptian prince would have been sent abroad to spend his formative years there. Frankly, I was hoping that you would participate in this thread. I remember reading a long time ago of succession rights passing through the matrilineal side, I cannot verify if this remains a valid theory, but it might be relevant here. Your input, when you have the time, will be much appreciated.

Sometimes it is very difficult being an Egyptian on this forum, my ancestors either tend to play the disappearing act here, or lose their identity and become aliens, atlanteans, giants, subsaharan africans, hebrews...My nickname at school was Hatshepsut, my family is full of Snefrus, Ramses, Ahmose; Kemy, Meryt (there is even an amenhotep)....can you imagine how conflicted I'm feeling now? :rofl:

Edited by meryt-tetisheri, 18 October 2012 - 03:52 AM.


#9    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:35 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 18 October 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

My eyes are shot! It's too late here and I'm starting to have double vision it seems

I used 'Hebrew' because it is the word used by White Unicorn, it doesn't seem that 'semitic' is what is referenced in this thread as much as hebrew (Joseph). I am aware that ancient Egyptians and their language were afro-semitic, that the first mention of Israel was in Merneptah's stele, and that there is no evidence of the exodus. I have doubts that a foreign adopted son would have ascended to the throne, or that an Egyptian prince would have been sent abroad to spend his formative years there. Frankly, I was hoping that you would participate in this thread. I remember reading a long time ago of succession rights passing through the matrilineal side, I cannot verify if this remains a valid theory, but it might be relevant here. Your input, when you have the time, will be much appreciated.

Sometimes it is very difficult being an Egyptian on this forum, my ancestors either tend to play the disappearing act here, or lose their identity and become aliens, atlanteans, giants, subsaharan africans, hebrews...My nickname at school was Hatshepsut, my family is full of Snefrus, Ramses, Ahmose; Kemy, Meryt (there is even an amenhotep)....can you imagine how conflicted I'm feeling now? :rofl:

Hello meryt-tetisheri. I'm sure kmt_sesh will make an appearance as he has time, but as far as I know the only time an outsider was ever asked to ascend the throne was during what is referred to as the Zannanza Affair:

http://www.reshafim....anza_affair.htm

This of course didn't happen as Zannanza came up missing on his way to Egypt and it is believed that he may have been assassinated before he had the chance to sit on the throne. At no other time has an outsider ever been asked, or even been put on the throne. At least until the time of the Persians, by which time Ancient Egypt wasn't entirely Egyptian. As to succession rights, I believe they were always patrilineal, but obviously with multiple wives of a pharaoh jockeying for their sons to take the throne and not always successfully.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#10    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:54 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 October 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

Hello meryt-tetisheri. I'm sure kmt_sesh will make an appearance as he has time, but as far as I know the only time an outsider was ever asked to ascend the throne was during what is referred to as the Zannanza Affair:

http://www.reshafim....anza_affair.htm

This of course didn't happen as Zannanza came up missing on his way to Egypt and it is believed that he may have been assassinated before he had the chance to sit on the throne. At no other time has an outsider ever been asked, or even been put on the throne. At least until the time of the Persians, by which time Ancient Egypt wasn't entirely Egyptian. As to succession rights, I believe they were always patrilineal, but obviously with multiple wives of a pharaoh jockeying for their sons to take the throne and not always successfully.

cormac

Thank you for answering my questions Cormac, much appreciated.

The theory I mentioned was used to explain father/daughter marriage among the royalty, that it was necessitated by the need to maintain the legitimacy of the king's rule when the 'great king's wife' died or disappeared. I cannot remember the source, and apparently it is not a valid theory anyway.


#11    Joe Sniderman

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:11 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 18 October 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and have downloaded and read portions of Joe's paper. There are lots of comments I'd love to make but time is very limited for me this week, and will be for some days to come.

I have been looking forward to your comments.  You seem to understand that the surest way to defeat conclusions is to find the flaws in the premises and reasoning that were used to reach those conclusions.

View Postkmt_sesh, on 18 October 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:


But I might direct Joe to a salient point: there's no proof for the existence of the Hebrews prior to the end of the Bronze Age.

Let me know if you still think this is a salient point after you have had an opportunity to familiarize yourself with the arguments I have presented.


Regards,
Joe


#12    Joe Sniderman

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:22 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 October 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

To add to this, there's no evidence of an exodus of some 600,000 people out of Egypt at any point during the New Kingdom.

I am confused.  I certainly have never suggested that I believe there is evidence of an exodus of 600,000 people!  I do not understand why you think this statement would be relevant to the topic at hand.


Regards,
Joe

Edited by Joe Sniderman, 18 October 2012 - 05:23 PM.


#13    questionmark

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:35 PM

View PostJoe Sniderman, on 18 October 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

I am confused.  I certainly have never suggested that I believe there is evidence of an exodus of 600,000 people!  I do not understand why you think this statement would be relevant to the topic at hand.


Regards,
Joe

What you believe is one thing, what you can demonstrate by archeological findings is quite another. Even if Armana would have been full of servant Jews the number would have been nowhere near 600,000 plus their families (see Numbers) in fact it would have been nowhere to 1/100 of that. For the rest of Egypt we know for sure that there was no time in history when suddenly half a million people disappeared. That would have been around 1/4 of the population and certainly noticeable in the archeological findings.

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#14    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:00 PM

View PostJoe Sniderman, on 18 October 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

I am confused.  I certainly have never suggested that I believe there is evidence of an exodus of 600,000 people!  I do not understand why you think this statement would be relevant to the topic at hand.


Regards,
Joe

I know you've not suggested such, but an integral part of the Hebrew story is the Biblical Exodus. As to Akhenaten being Joseph:


Quote

Markers DYS393 and YGATA-H4 showed identical allele constellations (repeat motif located in the microsatellite allele reiterated 13 and 11 times, respectively) in Amenhotep III, KV55, and Tutankhamun but different allelotypes in the nonrelated CCG61065 sample from TT320 (9 and 9, respectively). Syngeneic Y-chromosomal DNA in the 3 former mummies indicates that
they share the same paternal lineage.

We identified Yuya and Thuya as great-grandparents of Tutankhamun, Amenhotep III and KV35EL as his grandparents, and the KV55 male and KV35YL as his sibling parents...

Source: Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun’s FamilyJAMA, February 17, 2010—Vol 303, No. 7

Since you’ve already shown Tutankhamun is Akhenaten’s son in your PDF then the genetics would show that Akhenaten is indeed the son of Amenhotep III.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 18 October 2012 - 06:03 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#15    Joe Sniderman

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:14 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 18 October 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

What you believe is one thing, what you can demonstrate by archeological findings is quite another. Even if Armana would have been full of servant Jews the number would have been nowhere near 600,000 plus their families (see Numbers) in fact it would have been nowhere to 1/100 of that. For the rest of Egypt we know for sure that there was no time in history when suddenly half a million people disappeared. That would have been around 1/4 of the population and certainly noticeable in the archeological findings.

I wrote a paper to show the archeological findings that support what I believe to be true.  I do not believe the 600,000 number is true.  Perhaps you can show what I have said to make you think otherwise.


Joe





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