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DHS orders 160 billion rounds of ammo


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#61    lightly

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 03:09 AM

View Postninjadude, on 01 April 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

go back and read post 32 in this topic

Ok   i just did.. and in it  Hetuck mentions that DHS has 200,000 Employees.   I can't find anything anywhere that says all police are under full-time DHS control... (although there are provisions for that)

   It's your post #48 that says there are 100,000 ARMED DHS agents.

( i had it backward about the coast guard.. they are  NOW under DHS , in peacetime...   under DOD in time of war )

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#62    AsteroidX

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 04:01 AM

Quote

DHS Denies Massive Ammunition Purchase


I stopped reading the article there ND because its a lie.


#63    Babe Ruth

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:14 PM

View PostStellar, on 31 March 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Isnt it common for LEO to carry hollowpoint? The idea is that it reduces collateral damage since it removes the chances of overpenetration.

Hollow point rounds greatly increase the chance of death because they "explode" (figure of speech) upon penetration.

Full Metal Jacket is the opposite, and the Geneva Conventions require such ammo be used.  Hollow point are outlawed under Geneva Convention.  I guess the reasoning is that if someone is wounded with FMJ they are more likely to be withdrawn from battle.  Some measure of humanity perhaps, written into the laws of war.

I'm pretty sure police forces use the same rationale.


#64    Stellar

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:47 PM

Quote

Hollow point rounds greatly increase the chance of death because they "explode" (figure of speech) upon penetration

But reduce the collateral damage because of that very fact. The bullet has less chance of going "through" something (whether its a body or an object).

Quote

Full Metal Jacket is the opposite, and the Geneva Conventions require such ammo be used.  Hollow point are outlawed under Geneva Convention.

First off, its the law of armed conflict that prohibits it, not the Geneva convention. The Geneva convention is only concerned with how Civilians, wounded, shipwrecked and prisoners are treated --- not how wars are fought. Second of all, both the LOAC and the Geneva Conventions only pertain to war. They do not prohibit countries from using hollow point ammunition within their own country.

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#65    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:58 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 31 March 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Frank

Many things are different, but that's not the point so much.

Either 'stolen' or 'hijacked' will work for me.  Your choice.

The point is that the government IS NOT controlled by the people through the electoral process.  It is not controlled by the people hardly at all, pardon the double negative.  Alot of common folks are employed by the prison systems, but that's just a job.

The government is controlled by special interests, pure and simple.  Whether they own the government or merely control it, is hard to tell.  The barbarians are indeed inside the gate, and so many of them wear business suits.
The idea that the US government is a democracy where freedom is the catchword is I guess something Americans have learned from when they were born and forms a part of the national ideology.  It is not true and never has been true.

In fact, I don't think it really could be true anywhere for a government that actually functions.  The freedom Americans think they enjoy is really very limited -- necessarily limited -- even to the time of day one can play loud music.  To live with others one cannot be free, even partially free.

If you read Hamilton, you hear about nothing other than special interests.  They always dominate and its only when they go too far that this gets any control.  The largest special interest group is the wealthy, and this applies everywhere.  The world is, was, and always will be ruled by the wealthy.  Sometimes one group who are not wealthy overthrow the wealthy, but then the new rulers become wealthy, or at least their children do.  

Look at Teddy Roosevelt and the Trust Busters.  Monopolies of special interests -- and he broke them up a little -- but not to any particular purpose. I guess my point is things have not changed.  The States started as an aristocracy of wealthy, landed English planters and merchants, and still is much the same.  The club has opened a little to allow in a few immigrants and blacks and women, but you still have to have money or land.  Where there has been major progress is that the middle class and the poor are much better off than in the past, but this has not been because of politics but because of technology.

Edited by Frank Merton, 01 April 2013 - 03:00 PM.


#66    Babe Ruth

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:00 PM

View PostStellar, on 01 April 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

But reduce the collateral damage because of that very fact. The bullet has less chance of going "through" something (whether its a body or an object).



First off, its the law of armed conflict that prohibits it, not the Geneva convention. The Geneva convention is only concerned with how Civilians, wounded, shipwrecked and prisoners are treated --- not how wars are fought. Second of all, both the LOAC and the Geneva Conventions only pertain to war. They do not prohibit countries from using hollow point ammunition within their own country.

Where is this "law of armed conflict" of which you speak?

Your comments regarding what Geneva requires makes it appear quite likely you don't know what on earth you're talking about.  Nor do you understand the dynamics of bullets, HP or FMJ, interacting with living bodies. *SNIP*

Edited by Lilly, 01 April 2013 - 10:43 PM.
removed ad hom remark


#67    Stellar

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 01 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Where is this "law of armed conflict" of which you speak?


It is the embodiment of all the treaties governing the conduct of war. The Geneva conventions are but a mere subset of the LOACs.

Quote

Your comments regarding what Geneva requires makes it appear quite likely you don't know what on earth you're talking about.  

Oh yeah? Mind telling me in which of the 4 Geneva Conventions it speaks of hollow point ammunition? Perhaps you can give me the article number as well, so I can look it up and be just as "educated" on the GCs as you apparently are.

Quote

Nor do you understand the dynamics of bullets, HP or FMJ, interacting with living bodies.  

Are you telling me that HP penetrates a body just as much as FMJ? I just want to be sure of what you're saying, before I use both references and physics to completely prove that statement wrong.

Edited by Lilly, 01 April 2013 - 10:44 PM.
removed personal conflict

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

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#68    Stellar

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:30 PM

I'll even help you out Babe: look up the Hague declaration. 1899.

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#69    Lilly

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:45 PM

Discuss the subject at hand. Do not resort to using personal insults.

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#70    Babe Ruth

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostStellar, on 01 April 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

It is the embodiment of all the treaties governing the conduct of war. The Geneva conventions are but a mere subset of the LOACs.



Oh yeah? Mind telling me in which of the 4 Geneva Conventions it speaks of hollow point ammunition? Perhaps you can give me the article number as well, so I can look it up and be just as "educated" on the GCs as you apparently are.



Are you telling me that HP penetrates a body just as much as FMJ? I just want to be sure of what you're saying, before I use both references and physics to completely prove that statement wrong.

To be perfectly honest Stellar, I cannot quote chapter and verse of the Geneva Convention.  My statement is based upon my best recollection of what I was taught while in the US Army.  It was there, back in the 60's, that I was told that FMJ was required by Geneva, and that HP were prohibited by that treaty.

HP will penetrate, and quickly expands, almost flattening the round, and any internal organ that happens to take it will be for the most part destroyed.

FMJ on the other hand, will penetrate, NOT expand, and depending upon the dynamics of the situation, might very well exit the body on the other side, doing relatively minor damage to organs.  Obviously, if the round hits the heart, death will result.  But if the heart or head is not hit, likely just a wound that can be dealt with.


#71    Stellar

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 02 April 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:



To be perfectly honest Stellar, I cannot quote chapter and verse of the Geneva Convention.  My statement is based upon my best recollection of what I was taught while in the US Army.  It was there, back in the 60's, that I was told that FMJ was required by Geneva, and that HP were prohibited by that treaty.

In my experience, many of the laws of armed conflict are attributed (wrongfully) to the Geneva conventions simply because "Geneva Conventions" is a popular and widespread phrase which has to do with, essentially, humanity. Having said that, the Geneva Conventions only pertains to the treatment of persons that are no longer fighting in the war for one of the 4 reasons I listed above. The prohibition against expanding ammunition in conflict comes from the Hague declaration, directly stemming from the development of dum-dum rounds. Look it up if you still think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Quote

HP will penetrate, and quickly expands, almost flattening the round, and any internal organ that happens to take it will be for the most part destroyed.

FMJ on the other hand, will penetrate, NOT expand, and depending upon the dynamics of the situation, might very well exit the body on the other side, doing relatively minor damage to organs.  Obviously, if the round hits the heart, death will result.  But if the heart or head is not hit, likely just a wound that can be dealt with.

Exactly. The HP, due to its expansion, deposits more of its energy in the body, making it less likely to penetrate than FMJ... Meaning that when you shoot something, you have less chance of injuring something behind your target when using HP. This also doesn't apply only to organic tissue either.

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#72    Frank Merton

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:52 PM

So it's more deadly to the one in front and less deadly to the one behind.  I guess I know where I will try to be


#73    Sweetpumper

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 01 April 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

The freedom Americans think they enjoy is really very limited -- necessarily limited -- even to the time of day one can play loud music.

Really? I can play loud music whenever I want to.

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#74    aztek

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:22 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 02 April 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

My statement is based upon my best recollection of what I was taught while in the US Army.  It was there, back in the 60's, that I was told that FMJ was required by Geneva, and that HP were prohibited by that treaty.

HP will penetrate, and quickly expands, almost flattening the round, and any internal organ that happens to take it will be for the most part destroyed.

FMJ on the other hand, will penetrate, NOT expand, and depending upon the dynamics of the situation, might very well exit the body on the other side, doing relatively minor damage to organs.  Obviously, if the round hits the heart, death will result.  But if the heart or head is not hit, likely just a wound that can be dealt with.
actually things changed since 60s a lot.even fmj bullets are not the same, perfect example 5,45x39 ak74 round. fmj bullet that has air pocket  in the front, it flys on the edge of stabuility, once it hits it turns sideways, wobbles, and rips internal organs to shreds, it could eneter at the chest and exit out the lower back, destroying everything inside. i have seen it firsthand, even 5,56 fmj bullet will fragmet, and will do just as much damage as hp, not to mention, it would transfer all of its energy into the body, shockwave alone would rupture internal organs, just as bad as hp. also ripping intestants will make fluids leak out, and you'll get very bad infection, very fast, that alone is enough to kill.it really doesn't matter nowadays what you have been shot with.

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#75    aztek

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 02 April 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Really? I can play loud music whenever I want to.
try it in nyc subway, or a bus. see where it'll take you.

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