43 replies to this topic

[Voyager]

me-wonders, on 23 October 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Go to this site and copy it.  Then leave the printed copy where your mother is likely to find it.

http://timesupblog.b...essed-sons.html

WOW! Thank you for this article. I wouldn't leave it for her to see because she would know that either I had something to do with it or that I have read it. We're talking about a woman who has personally gone through and read very personal letter and emails of mine. So she's basically in my psyche and I can't hide anything from her (one of my reasons for deciding to distance myself from her).

Believe it or not, this "prophetess" at a church we belonged to years ago (I was around 17 or 18) called our family up to the front and when she got to me, she told my mother that she needed to watch me closer because I was really the "sneaky" one. I had always been seen as the goody-two-shoes before then, but sure enough, she started discovering dirt on me. And she has now been extra suspicious of me through the years, looking for every incriminating bit of evidence. She doesn't trust me...  and I don't trust her... because as most women are (no offense) she brings any of my flaws, secrets, or insecurities up when she wants to win an argument.

Not to get me wrong though. I do believe she is well intentioned and her behavior, however bizarre, is her way of showing that she cares. ... But I'm going to read through this article.

[markdohle]

Voyager, on 23 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if when she finds out that I'm not backing down, that she decides to take a ride with me to my friends house and sits down and interviews him in front of me. That would be so embarrassing. He's already told me he's afraid of her, after she pulled him to the side that day and grilled him; he said she gave him her whole life story (condensed version of her testimony) and interrogated him to make sure he wasn't "fake." He said he stood his ground, LOL, but she expressed to me her disdain for him. Well, at least she hasn't said anything bad about the last guy she met--who I'll be living with also.

A question.  Why would you even let your mother interview your friend?  You really do need to get away from her, not disown, you love her, but man, you need some strong boundaries, with a good door and a locked window ;-).

Peace
Mark

[me-wonders]

Voyager, on 24 October 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

WOW! Thank you for this article. I wouldn't leave it for her to see because she would know that either I had something to do with it or that I have read it. We're talking about a woman who has personally gone through and read very personal letter and emails of mine. So she's basically in my psyche and I can't hide anything from her (one of my reasons for deciding to distance myself from her).

Believe it or not, this "prophetess" at a church we belonged to years ago (I was around 17 or 18) called our family up to the front and when she got to me, she told my mother that she needed to watch me closer because I was really the "sneaky" one. I had always been seen as the goody-two-shoes before then, but sure enough, she started discovering dirt on me. And she has now been extra suspicious of me through the years, looking for every incriminating bit of evidence. She doesn't trust me...  and I don't trust her... because as most women are (no offense) she brings any of my flaws, secrets, or insecurities up when she wants to win an argument.

Not to get me wrong though. I do believe she is well intentioned and her behavior, however bizarre, is her way of showing that she cares. ... But I'm going to read through this article.

What if she does know you read the article and intentionally put it out for her to read?  Can I give you a lesson my son taught me?  When he started doing things I didn't want to him to do, he looked me straight in the eye, and told me it was his life and if I didn't like what he was doing, that was my problem.   Now may be he could trust my reaction would be different from your mothers, but I was glad he was manly enough to stand his ground, and was not being deceptive as his sister was doing.  But then I understand the goal of a parent is for the children to become independent.   I am sure you can find plenty of information about this if you make the effort.  How about looking at this as your responsibility to educate your mother?   You have other sibblings,  What about them?  What your mother has done is destructive and needs to be understood as abuse.  Instead of being a good boy, start being a good brother and educate your family.

Go to a second hand books store and request the book "Gods in Everyman" by Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D., and learn how to be your own hero.  Become the master of your own life.  Who you become is now in your hands, not your mothers or anyone elses.   Stop just letting life happen to you and take charge of your life.  Be the man your mother never had.  Someone who can set boundaries, without abandoning her.   Where is your father anyway?

Find audio tapes or other information produced by Anthony Robbins.  If you work his 30 day program you will be on your way to being the man you want to be.  Come on, take charge of your life.  It may not feel right at first, but you will get used to it, and everyone will be better off.

[me-wonders]

markdohle, on 24 October 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

A question.  Why would you even let your mother interview your friend?  You really do need to get away from her, not disown, you love her, but man, you need some strong boundaries, with a good door and a locked window ;-).

Peace
Mark

If he were 14 I would be less concerned, but sooner or later, those boundaries need to create some space between child and parent.  Now at age 14, a parent should know the child's friends.  But once that child comes of age, it is time for the separation to become more complete.   Leaving the cake in the oven for another 1/2 hour will not make a better cake, and if a child is not ready for independence at age 18, and is not in school or working and saving money to leave home, something is wrong.  Plenty of people are in favor of putting the child out by age 18.   I will be more lienant on this, but I will not be an enabler allowing an adult to live in my home, if this adult is making no effort to be independent.  

Is anyone else thinking religion might be a problem here?  Like it appears in this family and church, we are not just talking about God and being a responsible and moral adult, but we are creating another super natural being, Satan, the devil.   This might not be the most useful belief system.   It is one thing to understand the devil abstractly and another to take this literally and be superstitious.  Like should we  advise people to carry real silver crosses to protect them from the devil?  Should we question if the mother is possessed?   It might be time to flat out deny the reality of Satan and to accept personal responsibility for one's own actions?

Edited by me-wonders, 24 October 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[Voyager]

me-wonders, on 24 October 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

What if she does know you read the article and intentionally put it out for her to read?  Can I give you a lesson my son taught me?  When he started doing things I didn't want to him to do, he looked me straight in the eye, and told me it was his life and if I didn't like what he was doing, that was my problem.   Now may be he could trust my reaction would be different from your mothers, but I was glad he was manly enough to stand his ground, and was not being deceptive as his sister was doing.  But then I understand the goal of a parent is for the children to become independent.   I am sure you can find plenty of information about this if you make the effort.  How about looking at this as your responsibility to educate your mother?   You have other sibblings,  What about them?  What your mother has done is destructive and needs to be understood as abuse.  Instead of being a good boy, start being a good brother and educate your family.

Go to a second hand books store and request the book "Gods in Everyman" by Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D., and learn how to be your own hero.  Become the master of your own life.  Who you become is now in your hands, not your mothers or anyone elses.   Stop just letting life happen to you and take charge of your life.  Be the man your mother never had.  Someone who can set boundaries, without abandoning her.   Where is your father anyway?

Find audio tapes or other information produced by Anthony Robbins.  If you work his 30 day program you will be on your way to being the man you want to be.  Come on, take charge of your life.  It may not feel right at first, but you will get used to it, and everyone will be better off.

Thanks for your advise. To answer your question about my father: he had to go back to Nigeria (he's an African), for legal reasons, before I was born. He eventually started a new life there with another woman and fathered other children. He never came back so I've never seen him before. from what I understand, there was a lot of arguing and friction in the marriage; things came to a head when he hit her one day and she was tempted to "kill" him... (he was also caught with a prostitute, and she said she could never get over it). From what my older cousin recently told me, the arguments were usually started and won by my mother, as she is an "argumentative person." He (my cousin) told me that if he was my dad he probably would have done the same thing---used a legitimate reason for leaving as an excuse to get away from her.
     All 6 of us children have different fathers (my dad is the only one she married) and my mother has never been able to hold on to a man. She has a very strong will and a fiery "misfit" (according to my grandmother) personality. She probably got this trait from her mother though, as she was a very fiery person who also had several men---she also had to have the last word with her husbands. There was a joke among the sisters about a statement my grandmother made about her daughters: "It's going to take a strong man to deal with you all because you all are some strong women!"

[Leave Britney alone!]

Just leave and pack light. Call home using caller anonymous. Tell her you are spending the night with a friend or somewhere else if you don't want to be specific. Call the next day with the same thing and repeat.

Or just be brave and muster up all the woman in you and tell her to her face. It is obvious she has defeated the male in you.

[me-wonders]

This is in the psychology forum, and perhaps understanding of conditioning would be more helpful here than being judgmental.   It seems obvious some pretty bad conditioning has occurred and what is needed is understanding of this, and understanding of how to change the conditioning.

I am afraid a really good out come is not possible.   I usually defend mothers, but not this time.   To me it looks like there is a history of abuse here, and it might not be good to see the abusiveness as equal to strength.   It appears this mother is dysfuncational, and that it would be better to identify her behaviors as dysfunctional and abuse, rather than mistaking this for strength and passing the abuse and dysfunction on to the next generation.

[Ninhursag]

Ahhh Voyager, I know where you're coming from ..

Even tho your story is different from mine, there is some common ground ..

I too, need to tell my mum I'll be moving out soon, to a different country at that, and I honestly have no idea how will that end up since I'm an only child, 27 years of age and my mum and dad still treat me as if I were 12 ..

I know that sooner or later I'll have to come forward and tell them that they've had their own life, and now it's time for me to live my own life. I don't even wanna try to imagine how my mum will react to that, coz I know if something happens to her because of that I will never ever be able to forgive myself and honestly I don't know if I would be able to lead a normal life knowing I've destroyed my parents' lives.

But I also know that I am not being selfish, that I have the right to be happy just as they were, and that I am here for a reason, and that I only live once and should try to make the best of my life ..

I think you should know that too .. Parents can be so selfish and possessive of us even if they don't realize it, because all they really wanna do is protect us .. But they don't see that they sometimes take it a bit too far ..

I hope you move out and start your own life, no matter how hard it will be. But you have the right  to try and be happy ..

Edited by Ninhursag, 26 October 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[me-wonders]

Someone liked my post here, and I like what was said in the "Talk on Anger, rage and resentment" thread.  Let me be honest with you all.  I understand mothers being abusive and destructive to their children, because I was.  I did a lot right, and was a devoted mother, but----  what we know today, about parenting, is so much better than what many of us knew in the past.   We are not born knowing this stuff, and I think a we society need to gain awareness and need to rethink how to deal with our humanness and how to better protect the children.  

I did not know I was being abused and being abusive, until I took a college class on "personal power".   That class helped me identify what is abusive, but didn't instanteously make me a better person.  How could it when my X was also an abusive person, and not wlling to take responsibility for that.   Look at where we are coming from?  Our culture is based on individualism, and this is good in some ways and harmful in some ways.  My parents went through the Great Depression, second world war, and were divorced.  Needing help was considered a weakness, and who around us knew how to help anyway?   Marriages sky rocket during the war years, because the government intentionally used romance to mobilize us for war, and following the war, divorce rates sky rocketed.  Families were broken down, and today we talk as though families are no longer important.   We seem to be amusing single parents can raise children without help, and we are in huge denial of the harm being done to children.  

Those who turn to the bible and the church, seem to have advantages, those who do not belong to a church do not have.  However, not all churches are equal, and some seem to promote abusive instead of prevent it.   Personally, I can not belong to any church, because I do not see the biblical stories as good explanations of truth.  I think the truth is confused with notions that are not so helpful, such as creating the devil as a supernatural being that can harm us.  To me this like scaring children with stories of the boogie man, and it is not helpful, nor is it an accurate explanation of what is so for humans.  The demons are not external, but internal and it is bad childhood experiences, or war like experiences, that put them there, and poverty is like living in a war zone, because of the intense stress, insecurity and lack of stability in a good situation.  Being stable is bad situation, a city ghetto where violence is common expereince, is not a good stability!!!    

If a man and woman can not get along, how can their children learn the skills they need for getting what they want in a positive way?  If grandparents, aunts and unlces are not involved, who protects the children from the short comings of parents?  Give me a break.  We are not born perfect, and even if we do grow up with ideal families, learning all the social skills we need for life, we have our bad days.   We need each other, and perhaps our individualistic society needs to take another look at that?  

Just yesterday I took my granddaughter to the park, and watched a young child deal with an abusive father.  I held my tongue, because I feared if I intervened I would make matters worse.  I believe the father meant well, but it was evident he was raised abusively and didn't know any better.   It had to be his day to visit the child, because it is extremely doubtful a woman would live him, and the child was not comfortable with him.   We are not small communities as we once were, and we are ignoring the abuse of children, because we don't have relationships with them or their parents.  Families are broken down and some talk of doing away with families all together.  Please, folks, are we going in the right direction?   Are we being realistic about our human nature, and the needs of children, or are we running on denial and carelessness?

[pallidin]

In Nature, there is always the time(and need) to fly out of the nest and move-on with your own life.

This can be emotionally difficult with certain family structures, but, it IS nature's way.

[me-wonders]

me-wonders, on 25 October 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

This is in the psychology forum, and perhaps understanding of conditioning would be more helpful here than being judgmental.   It seems obvious some pretty bad conditioning has occurred and what is needed is understanding of this, and understanding of how to change the conditioning.

I am afraid a really good out come is not possible.   I usually defend mothers, but not this time.   To me it looks like there is a history of abuse here, and it might not be good to see the abusiveness as equal to strength.   It appears this mother is dysfuncational, and that it would be better to identify her behaviors as dysfunctional and abuse, rather than mistaking this for strength and passing the abuse and dysfunction on to the next generation.

Wow, you speak of this from a different angle, but what you are saying is a very common problem today.  Some parents try to follow their children to college, and some even get in the middle of a grown child's life when this young adult becomes an employee, and the parents try to resolve the young adult's problems with an employer.
I think it is easier to let children leave home when there are 6 of them, and each time we left go of a child, it is easier.  

You might look for information. books or articles, for parents needing to adjust to letting go of child.  Information is always helpful, and having it before the event is a good thing.  

From the point of view of a mother, we want to be assured our sons and daughters will be safe, so what will make you safe?   Create a list of what will make you safe and present it to your parents.  You can use what they taught you of life as number one on your list.   Is your housing situation secure?  Do you have a job or means of support?  In a foriegn country, is there an embassy, and do you know how to contact it?   Are there churches or other organization connections that you can use?   How well have you planned, and what are your options if you need help?   The better you can lay out your plan and resources, the more your parents will be impressed with your ability to take care of yourself.   If you approuch them with a good plan and self confidence, things will go better, than if you approach them with a fear of how they will react.    If they detect fear in you, they react to the fear, and things may not go so well.   Exude self confidence, and validate your self confidence with a good plan.

[me-wonders]

Just did a google search on letting go of children and there is plenty of information out there.   Help your parents with information.





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  Raising Children Means Letting Them Go - NYTimes.com
  
  
  parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/.../raising-children-means-letting-... Oct 17, 2011 – The mother of a terminally ill child writes that her story is not that different from the rest of ours: we are all preparing for when our children leave ...
  
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  Letting Go of Our Adult Children [Book]
  
  
  www.support4change.com/relationships/letgo/4/09.html A full-length book on dealing with grown children who haven't turned out the way parents expected, which has been of great help to hundreds of people.
  
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  Letting go as children head off to college for the first time ...
  
  
  news.wustl.edu/news/pages/5426.aspx Jul 17, 2006 – But it can be especially tough on "helicopter parents," those who tend to hover over their children and can have a hard time letting go.
  
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  How I let my grown children go and set myself free: 9 ways
  
  
  www.vibrantnation.com/.../how-i-let-my-grown-children-go-and-set-... Jul 22, 2010 – I finally found the secret of living a carefree life of no guilt and no regrets. I have learned how to really let my grown children go. All it takes is ...
  
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  Letting go of our children should be a luxury that we can all afford ...
  
  
  www.guardian.co.uk/.../letting-go-of-children-should-be-a-luxury-w... Jun 13, 2012 – Suzanne Moore: Bad things may happen but control freakery does not stop them happening. We have to let our kids take risks.
  
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  How to Let Go As They Grow: An Age-by-Age Guide
  
  
  www.bhg.com › ... › School & College › Back to School How to Let Go As They Grow. From that first school bus ride to driving alone, transitions are as hard on Mom as they are on the child (maybe harder!). Here's how ...
  
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  Independence Day: Four Ways to Let Go of Your Kids
  
  
  www.familycircle.com › ... › Parenting › Communication & Bonding You know you should cheer on your child's growing freedom and independence. And you do -- mostly. But for the part of you that wants to hang on just a little too ...
  
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  Courageous Parents, Confident Kids — Letting Go So You Both Can ...
  
  
  amytiemann.com/courageous-parents-confident-kids/ Courageous Parents, Confident Kids -- Letting Go So You Both Can Grow. Courageous Parents, Confident Kids draws on the knowledge of 14 respected ...
  
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  Letting Go of Our Grown Adult Children, When What We Do is Never ...
  
  
  www.tellinitlikeitis.net/.../letting-go-of-our-grown-adult-children-wh... Jul 30, 2010 – “Letting go of adult children. It's something parents do all the time. At least we're told that's what parents are supposed to do about the time their ...

[Tommy13]

Come from your heart, do it with love and with the conviction of the great spirit

[Hilander]

Just tell them, parents know sooner or later your going to leave, that's life, they will adjust.

[Voyager]

Well, tomorrow (11/01/2012) is the day that I will tell her. I'm going to send it to her via text message, including the invite for further discussion. Please feel free to pray (or meditate) for me, as I will need all the spiritual help I can get. I know that she is going to pull out every psychological and spiritual trick in the book to get me to change my mind, and being that she is more intelligent (or experienced, rather) than I am, I know she is going to manage to change my mind, but I only hope that I will be able to change it back before December 2nd (the day I plan on moving out).

It's funny, because when she found out I was gay, about 3 yrs ago, and I told her I would move out, she laid hands on my forehead (almost knocking me out of the chair I was sitting in) in a gesture to cast out whatever rebellious "demon" was influencing me (but of course I made the statement out of the wrong attitude/spirit, so I pretty much set myself up for it), and several mandatory family meetings followed, with me as the center of attention. She proceeded to tell me that if I tried to move out she was going to call every (available) family member that she knows and have the slam and pin me down to the floor so I wouldn't get out the door.

I know that within the 32 days I have left here at the house, she is going to do everything within those 32 days to make me feel guilty, including crying and throwing temper tantrums and trying to scare me (although she doesn't have to try hard)! She is probably going to make my life a living hell and I imagine November will be a long month for me. Her golden child is leaving and she is not going to let it happen without putting up a fight.

You might question why I would tell her so early if I know what's going to happen. But the thing is I feel like this dark cloud is hovering over me that is not allowing me to do anything productive. I don't know if I would call it depression or what, but I need to use this month to get things in order, first, but it seems that I won't be able to do anything until I get this off of my chest/shoulders/back.

Edited by Voyager, 01 November 2012 - 12:33 AM.