97 replies to this topic

[and then]

I am a self described Christian and I am often called a war monger for pointing out the logic of self defense in situations where to refrain would mean personal destruction.  So I wonder what you folks think the responsibility of a Christian is in this area?  Is it EVER acceptable?

[Hasina]

I think it's the same for everyone really, in self-defense when the other person has shown that they are both willing and able to hurt or kill you. Someone who just threatens and boasts though is more of a murky territory, if a guy threatens you for money, would you jump on his back and slit his throat after he's let you go, because, well he could do it again, right?

Edited by Hasina, 22 October 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

and then, on 22 October 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

I am a self described Christian and I am often called a war monger for pointing out the logic of self defense in situations where to refrain would mean personal destruction.  So I wonder what you folks think the responsibility of a Christian is in this area?  Is it EVER acceptable?

You have two options...

What would Jesus do ?

And why just Christians ? I say  if we are all under threat.. like for example - Another religion dominating and using force as much as they can, killing ect..  Wouldn't we all want some sort of defence ? That includes the non religious like me too..

So you are right back to - What would Jesus do?  OR  be a man and say - We all need some sort of self defence to survive in this world  regardless who we all are..

Turning the other cheek would never interest me

[spud the mackem]

Bit of a strange question buddy, If you're Military you are in deep S**t if you dont obey orders,but I guess an ordinary guy/girl would retaliate if threatened,any one would not only Christians.I would prefer to walk away but if it was inevitable I would make sure I got the first one in,and then the guy may recover in hospital,or not !.

[Hasina]

Beckys_Mom, on 22 October 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Turning the other cheek would never interest me

I've found that quote to be taken a little out of context, weird for me being an atheist defending a quote from the Bible. Here's a good summery of what I was told about that quote:
http://www.onenesspe...m/turncheek.htm

[Eldorado]

When you have absolutely no other choice.  Literally.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

For a truely devout Christian? "if there i any blood on my sword, let it be my own".
For the rest of us though, like Eldorado says, when there is literally no other choice. I'd also say it'd probably be  ore Christlike to take up arms in the defence of others and not yourself.

[libstaK]

I think the issue can be so often about fear of the unknown and putting names and blames on those we believe responsible for our own fears.  When confronted with a situation that clearly leaves no choice, self defence is the obvious answer.  However, when making judgements based on third party observations without considering whether we have all the relevant information - murky territory at best.

So the real question is - do we react because our fear drives us to?  Or do we act because we are morally compelled not to allow others to suffer when we know we can make a difference for the better?

[MysticStrummer]

If "Christian" means following the teachings of Jesus, then the answer is never. Most Christians I know would say that "Christian" means you believe Jesus lived, died, and was resurrected for your sins, and what he said along the way is secondary. I read Hasina's link, but it seems to be ignoring the first part of the quote while explaining away the last part. Violence and killing are never the answer, according to what Jesus said in the Bible. Self defense is an animal instinct. Of course, in other parts of the Bible God orders his people to kill quite a bit, and not in self defence. Maybe Jesus was a rebellious son.  ; )

[Purifier]

and then, on 22 October 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

I am a self described Christian and I am often called a war monger for pointing out the logic of self defense in situations where to refrain would mean personal destruction.  So I wonder what you folks think the responsibility of a Christian is in this area?  Is it EVER acceptable?

From what I gather, there is a sentiment going around, that believes this is not the case, that most Christians in this day and age don't actually go on the defense but rather go on the offense first chance they get. Which leads to a majority of conclusions that this is more like Antichrist behavior than Christ like.

Is this sentiment coming from other religions, atheist or the population in general? I don't know. But regardless, it's something I would think would bother most Christians if they cared at all about the perception of a peacful religion.

[OverSword]

First I'll point out that Jesus' own disciples carried swords, and one was used against the men that came to take Jesus before Pilot.  Of course Jesus healed the man that was wounded and went with them, to die, of his own free will.  So using the example set by Jesus...never.

Just saying.  Real Christians live thier lives according to any example set by the way Jesus lived his life then it is not even OK to kill in self defense.  I guess I would probably not be a good Christian when it came down to the choice of either dying or killing to live.

Edited by OverSword, 22 October 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[Etu Malku]

I would have to say that it is OK to Kill when GOD commands you to, which has been the case all through Abrahamic history.

-God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21).
-God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there.
-He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3).
-He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6).
-In (Judges 21) He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead
-In (2 Kings 10:18-27) God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church!

In total God kills 371,186 people directly just in these cases

I'm still waiting for the total to come in from the Islamic GOD

[Etu Malku]

OverSword, on 22 October 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

First I'll point out that Jesus' own disciples carried swords, and one was used against the men that came to take Jesus before Pilot.  Of course Jesus healed the man that was wounded and went with them, to die, of his own free will.  So using the example set by Jesus...never.

Just saying.  Real Christians live thier lives according to any example set by the way Jesus lived his life then it is not even OK to kill in self defense.  I guess I would probably not be a good Christian when it came down to the choice of either dying or killing to live.

Any evidence to back these statements up? Christ, there isn't even any evidence that some Jesus dude even existed!

[and then]

OverSword, on 22 October 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

First I'll point out that Jesus' own disciples carried swords, and one was used against the men that came to take Jesus before Pilot.  Of course Jesus healed the man that was wounded and went with them, to die, of his own free will.  So using the example set by Jesus...never.

Just saying.  Real Christians live thier lives according to any example set by the way Jesus lived his life then it is not even OK to kill in self defense.  I guess I would probably not be a good Christian when it came down to the choice of either dying or killing to live.

This touches on my thinking also.  I can remember on 9-11-01 thinking that those murderers had set in motion a war that Christians could not win - and remain faithful.  It seemed distinctly unfair to me and I was confused.  My approach to life is to mind my own business and "first, do no harm" as the oath says... but I would have zero trouble in killing if someone threatened my family.  I think I would suffer emotionally with the act in it's aftermath, but at the moment I was committing it - not at all.  Even in war I must admit that I could not be responsible for mass deaths.  Being an officer in the military who would deploy a nuke I just couldn't do - even to save my country.  Life is awfully confusing.

[pallidin]

IMHO, it's OK for Christians to fight, but not to kill.

Kind-of reminds me of some police engagements where I think, why not shoot them in their legs, or taz them, as oppossed to a lethal chest shot. Of course, if the "criminal" is armed with a gun, a leg shot or two would still create a bad situation if the "criminal" fired his/her gun at the police or bystanders.