Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

When ‘God’s will,’ rape and pregnancy collide


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#16    ranrod

ranrod

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 726 posts
  • Joined:29 Aug 2009

Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:49 PM

View Postpbarosso, on 26 October 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

so life is based on braincells?

ending a human life is not murder?

you arent a human then.
Where do you draw the line?  A single cell organism, such as a fertilized egg, is as much life as anything else, yet when you scratch your head, you kill hundreds of them.  Are you a mass murderer?  Before fertilization, human sperm are as alive as you are.  Are you a mass murderer even when you successfully fertilize an egg (only one makes it in, millions die)?  There's little difference between a fertilized egg (before the first trimester) and the other kinds of lifeforms they are at that point in development.  Fertilized eggs have the potential to become human (to about 45% chance of live birth across the general population), but most die on their own before becoming human.  Giving women the choice to have one not become human because of rape seems fair to me.  You'd be spreading the rape gene.  Better to weed that out of our gene pool.  I'm not sure where I'd draw the line, but for sure it'd be before the first trimester is done.

Edited by ranrod, 26 October 2012 - 09:51 PM.


#17    pbarosso

pbarosso

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,001 posts
  • Joined:16 Sep 2005

Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:42 AM

View Postranrod, on 26 October 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Where do you draw the line?  A single cell organism, such as a fertilized egg, is as much life as anything else, yet when you scratch your head, you kill hundreds of them.  Are you a mass murderer?  Before fertilization, human sperm are as alive as you are.  Are you a mass murderer even when you successfully fertilize an egg (only one makes it in, millions die)?  There's little difference between a fertilized egg (before the first trimester) and the other kinds of lifeforms they are at that point in development.  Fertilized eggs have the potential to become human (to about 45% chance of live birth across the general population), but most die on their own before becoming human.  Giving women the choice to have one not become human because of rape seems fair to me.  You'd be spreading the rape gene.  Better to weed that out of our gene pool.  I'm not sure where I'd draw the line, but for sure it'd be before the first trimester is done.

but a sperm cell is not a human life, nor does it have the potential to become human life on its own, same as any human egg cell. i dont think there is any rape gene LOL. as long as there are unfavorable environments in developmental stages of young adulthood there will always be rape or murder or craziness.

the pursuit of knowledge will force you to pick a side. Choose wisely.
                                                --me

#18    Rlyeh

Rlyeh

    Omnipotent Entity

  • Member
  • 9,168 posts
  • Joined:01 Jan 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The sixth circle

  • Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:50 AM

View Postpbarosso, on 26 October 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

so life is based on braincells?
Decisions are. Your question what the embryo will want is therefore asinine.

Quote

ending a human life is not murder?

you arent a human then.
Murder is illegal killing. You're not very bright.

Edited by Rlyeh, 27 October 2012 - 07:54 AM.


#19    Beany

Beany

    Government Agent

  • 3,332 posts
  • Joined:26 Jul 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

  • If music is the most universal language just think of me as one whole note. Nikki Giovanni

Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:11 PM

I happen to know a woman who had a child that came out her being raped. Both her & her son's lives are so charged with emotion around this that neither are sure having the child was the best decision. We take life all the time, by the hundreds, and hundreds of thousands. It's called war. We put criminals to death. We let starving people die when we have the means to feed them. "And all of the people involved are viable human beings, walking, talking, breathing air, with families. The idea of calling abortion murder has it's genesis with the religious right, and when we bring God into the equation it becomes a religious issue. While I respect the religious beliefs of others, I do not want it legislated and forced on me or my community. All one has to do is look back in history to see what happens to a country when religious beliefs become paramount to all else: the Inquisition, witch burnings, land and property being taken away, executions, women being barred from education, men forced to wear beards, people's lives in danger because of their beliefs. It's a slippery slope, and one we should stay off us.


#20    Beany

Beany

    Government Agent

  • 3,332 posts
  • Joined:26 Jul 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

  • If music is the most universal language just think of me as one whole note. Nikki Giovanni

Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

And can I say I'm tired of the "it's God's will" business. I'm not a believer in the Abrahamic God, so that phrase holds no authority for me. And it's way over used; it seems to be the ultimate justification for people exercising their own will.


#21    Ninhursag

Ninhursag

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 554 posts
  • Joined:16 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Kish, Sumer

  • Et In Arcadia Ego

Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:35 PM

That's what happens when people are blinded by religion .. It makes me sick! :angry:

~ Nothing In Nature Is By Chance... Something Appears To Be Chance Only Because Of Our Lack Of Knowledge. - Brauch De Spinoza ~

#22    ranrod

ranrod

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 726 posts
  • Joined:29 Aug 2009

Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:50 PM

View Postpbarosso, on 27 October 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

but a sperm cell is not a human life, nor does it have the potential to become human life on its own, same as any human egg cell. i dont think there is any rape gene LOL. as long as there are unfavorable environments in developmental stages of young adulthood there will always be rape or murder or craziness.
Well I disagree about the rape gene.  I've seen some good research indicating it is a genetic trait, at least in a good deal of the cases.  The life the sperm alone lives or an egg alone lives is not very different from the life a fertilized egg lives.  The fertilized egg might die on its own or through willful termination but the act of terminating an egg, a sperm, or a fertilized egg is not very different.  They're all small-cell organisms.  Terminating small cell organisms is not murder.
It does feel wrong to terminate a pregnancy past a certain point.  That point seems very subjective to determine.  As a law, that point should NOT be based on religion.  Luckily women normally know when they are raped so they can end it when it's a small-cell organism.


#23    willowdreams

willowdreams

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 964 posts
  • Joined:12 Jun 2009
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

  • Never let the facts get in the way of the truth- heard during an episode of 'Lie to Me' by Dr. Cal Lightman

Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:40 PM

Government should stay out of it, it is between her and her doctor, if you hate abortion and think of it as murder, do not have an abortion.

Some religions/cultures see rats as life, cows as life... doesn't mean everyone does

Some think of life beginning at the second of conceptions, does not mean all of us do.

Some believe in what their 'holy' book says, does not mean all of us do.

We are not all of one religious or one cultural belief system.  This is one of those areas. Your belief is yours, you should follow it. My belief system is mine, and I should follow it. I should not force you to have an abortion if you are raped. You should not force me to have a baby if I am raped.

really.. it is that simple, it only becomes complicated when one group feels they have a right to force part or all of their belief on another and want to do it legally.

Posted Image


#24    Orcseeker

Orcseeker

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,767 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 27 October 2012 - 11:23 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 25 October 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

[/size][/font][/color]
^^^^^This.  A thousand times this ^^^^^^
Seconded, this is why politics and religion should never, ever mix.


#25    wittyusernamefailed

wittyusernamefailed

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 135 posts
  • Joined:14 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Still in frikkin kansas toto.

  • "Well, this is gonna be a wipe"

Posted 28 October 2012 - 05:43 PM

Well first off, most people who believe in the Abrahamic tradition ( ie. Christianity, Islam, Judaism), and who tout "gods will" tend to forget the pretty basic concept of "free will". Which basically dictates that in order for there to even be original sin there had to be the ability to either choose or reject it. This leads to the fact that the world is very much like a wind up toy, yes God started things in motion (whither by big bang, or by chucking Lama's into the air or whatnot is irrevelent), but then is mostly stepped away from the affairs of humanity leaving us to choose what we will. Thus humans will inevitable make evil decisions like to rape another individual; The rape would not be "God's will" just any more then it is "God's will" for me to eat a frikken candy bar. So we can remove the concept of god wanting a rape victim to be forced to carry on the pregnancy from said rape.

Now as for is abortion morally acceptable in any situation, that is a totally different issue; and basically boils down to the question of "When does the lump of sperm cells become aware?" before that point then yes abortion through surgical or chemical means would be allowed and be no different that cutting your fingernails; it's only cells. But after... well then you are taking the life of a sentient being, that is murder, and you have to ask whither murdering that individual was in any way justified.


#26    Imaginarynumber1

Imaginarynumber1

    I am not an irrational number

  • Member
  • 4,833 posts
  • Joined:22 Mar 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:15 PM

View Postwittyusernamefailed, on 28 October 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Well first off, most people who believe in the Abrahamic tradition ( ie. Christianity, Islam, Judaism), and who tout "gods will" tend to forget the pretty basic concept of "free will". Which basically dictates that in order for there to even be original sin there had to be the ability to either choose or reject it. This leads to the fact that the world is very much like a wind up toy, yes God started things in motion (whither by big bang, or by chucking Lama's into the air or whatnot is irrevelent), but then is mostly stepped away from the affairs of humanity leaving us to choose what we will. Thus humans will inevitable make evil decisions like to rape another individual; The rape would not be "God's will" just any more then it is "God's will" for me to eat a frikken candy bar. So we can remove the concept of god wanting a rape victim to be forced to carry on the pregnancy from said rape.

Now as for is abortion morally acceptable in any situation, that is a totally different issue; and basically boils down to the question of "When does the lump of sperm cells become aware?" before that point then yes abortion through surgical or chemical means would be allowed and be no different that cutting your fingernails; it's only cells. But after... well then you are taking the life of a sentient being, that is murder, and you have to ask whither murdering that individual was in any way justified.


Abortion is not murder. As Ryleh pointed out, murder is the illegal killing of another person. Abortion, being legal, is not murder.

Edit:Also, these politicians need to stay out of uterus's. It's no damn business of theirs if a women wants to get an abortion.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 28 October 2012 - 07:16 PM.

"A cat has nine lives. For three he plays, for three he strays, and for the last three he stays."


July 17th, 2008 (Full moon the next night)

RAPTORS! http://www.unexplain...pic=233151&st=0


#27    wittyusernamefailed

wittyusernamefailed

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 135 posts
  • Joined:14 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Still in frikkin kansas toto.

  • "Well, this is gonna be a wipe"

Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:49 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 28 October 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Abortion is not murder. As Ryleh pointed out, murder is the illegal killing of another person. Abortion, being legal, is not murder.

Edit:Also, these politicians need to stay out of uterus's. It's no damn business of theirs if a women wants to get an abortion.


By that argument the Holocaust was ok, it was completely legal according to the country doing it. Simply because a government, people, or religion deem an action acceptable does not make it so. Any action done to harm in any way a sentient being is wrong no matter what belief system you choose to follow says about it. Now whither the women of this country deem the loss of an innocent live acceptable to insure their own life is a question that does need to be fairly answered, but let us approach the matter with clear eyes and not try to explain away the issue through definitions. Also I thought I made it pretty clear that I was totally for the free providential of contraceptives and other means to bring any pregnancy into check immediately in the event of a rape.


#28    Imaginarynumber1

Imaginarynumber1

    I am not an irrational number

  • Member
  • 4,833 posts
  • Joined:22 Mar 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

View Postwittyusernamefailed, on 28 October 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

By that argument the Holocaust was ok, it was completely legal according to the country doing it. Simply because a government, people, or religion deem an action acceptable does not make it so. Any action done to harm in any way a sentient being is wrong no matter what belief system you choose to follow says about it. Now whither the women of this country deem the loss of an innocent live acceptable to insure their own life is a question that does need to be fairly answered, but let us approach the matter with clear eyes and not try to explain away the issue through definitions. Also I thought I made it pretty clear that I was totally for the free providential of contraceptives and other means to bring any pregnancy into check immediately in the event of a rape.

It's not an argument. The law states that murder is the illegal killing of another and right now abortion is legal. Besides, a blastocyst is not a person.

Posted Image

"A cat has nine lives. For three he plays, for three he strays, and for the last three he stays."


July 17th, 2008 (Full moon the next night)

RAPTORS! http://www.unexplain...pic=233151&st=0


#29    tipotep

tipotep

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,164 posts
  • Joined:14 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

  • Muchos Spectacular

Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:17 AM

Of course anyone that has been raped should have the right to an abortion , I don't understand how anything else can come into it .

Imagine being raped , imagine the terror the victim feels , do we have the right to tell the victim that they can't abort the pregnancy ?, do we have the right to tell them that they will have to see the rapists face in their child for the rest of their lives  ? Of course not , Its not up too anyone except the victim and their doctor and family .

Gods will hey - Don't start me on this one , If god was all so powerful and kind why does rape exist ? Is god forcing these people to commit  rape  ? Is that his will ?

Religion and politics have no part in this debate , IMHO when one or the other get involved things become messy and personal belief seem to over power common sense .

TiP.

The people who post in the fun and games section have a serious problem with gerbils, this includes and is not limited to Helen, JC and Oversword - they need to seek professional help stat.

#30    The Id3al Experience

The Id3al Experience

    Paranormal Investigator

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 829 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand

  • "Live with cause and leave results to the great law of the universe, passing each day in peaceful contemplation"

Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:26 AM

I had a friend that was the child of a rapist, he commited sucide because of how he was concieved. I dont think its fair on the woman nor the child....

He couldnt handle that fact that 'older' (people of the age that knew about the case when it happened) knew about him and what happend to his mother.. having to deal with the fact his father -- wasnt a 'father' per say...

Ate him up till he couldnt handle it?

this alone has made me say to people that believe abortion in this case is wrong.... GET OVER YOURSELF AND LET PEOPLE BE... you think its wrong, when you get raped, have your baby - but its not up to you to decide for others...

Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users