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Why did God create us if he knew we would sin


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#181    White Crane Feather

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:45 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 06 November 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:


Exactly, anecdotal and personal evidence does not constitute as anything other than just that. However, evidence that can be observed, reproduced and tested over and over again to meet the same results does. We have literally nothing other than anecdotes and hear-say in support of these spirits. While it does not entirely disprove their existence, it really does the concept of spiritual entities no favours in support of its position.

I would much rather accept the results of "flawed empiricism" than accept the story of Joe Plumber as being undeniable, irrefutable fact. Spiritual entities have as much evidence in their favour as faeries, goblins, gnomes, elves, pixies, nymphs, leprechauns, etc. At least empiricism is making an attempt to find the answers instead of blindly accepting a story as fact.
Well good.. That's fine that you put your faith in empiricism... I don't blame you a bit... But let's stop calling beliefs illogical or delusions shall we. There is no basis for that either. If you want to be empirical fundamentalists why not truelly be one?  All bodies of evidence carry weight. Empiricism carries pretty heavily, but unfortunately empiricism carries  burdons that are different but not more authoritative ( unless you prescribe to dogma) than other kinds of evidence. If I see something it's real untill prooven otherwise. Here lies the separation. Some people like yourself only rely on consensus. This is truly religous in nature. Don't you see?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#182    Alienated Being

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 06 November 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Well good.. That's fine that you put your faith in empiricism...
Faith, by definition, is a belief independent of evidence... which is quite the contrary of what I am doing. I am basing my belief ON evidence, which is the complete opposite of faith.

Quote

I don't blame you a bit... But let's stop calling beliefs illogical or delusions shall we.
Well, when certain beliefs prove that they are otherwise, then perhaps I will; until then, I refuse to do so.

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If you want to be empirical fundamentalists why not truelly be one?  All bodies of evidence carry weight.
Not all, no; it vastly depends on what types of evidences you are making reference to.

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If I see something it's real untill prooven otherwise.
That is an unhealthy train of thought to bear, especially considering that it may indicate a serious, underlying medical condition.

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Here lies the separation. Some people like yourself only rely on consensus. This is truly religous in nature. Don't you see?
I rely on consensus when it is reinforced by evidence that I have access to, whether that be via scientific journals, articles, etc. I would not rely on consensus if the consensus had no evidential basis for their collective agreement.


#183    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:33 AM

View PostAlienated Being, on 07 November 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:


Faith, by definition, is a belief independent of evidence... which is quite the contrary of what I am doing. I am basing my belief ON evidence, which is the complete opposite of faith.


Well, when certain beliefs prove that they are otherwise, then perhaps I will; until then, I refuse to do so.


Not all, no; it vastly depends on what types of evidences you are making reference to.


That is an unhealthy train of thought to bear, especially considering that it may indicate a serious, underlying medical condition.


I rely on consensus when it is reinforced by evidence that I have access to, whether that be via scientific journals, articles, etc. I would not rely on consensus if the consensus had no evidential basis for their collective agreement.
No you are not you are basing your beliefs that spiritual people are delusional on No evidence what so ever other than your own beleifs. You have no idea what personal evidences some if those people have. You personal beliefs force you to consider them insane if they have personal evidence, but non of these assumptions are based on any kind if empiricism only the idea that people can be insane. Don't you see how illogical it is to claim Somone is insane because they have experiences that you don't? How do you know it is not you that is insane or deficient in some way?

All types.

Not if clinically cleared with a clean bill of health from both doctors and psychologists alike. Luckily most psychologists do not carry the same bias you do.

Empirical evidence right?  If you lived on a planet billions of years from now during the epoc that all the galaxies have expanded away from each other faster than the speed of light, and you ran across an ancient satalight from another world that described the expansion of space, other galaxies, quasars and other intergalactic phenomenon you would forever be stuck in ignorance.

Faith in institutions is still faith. Luckily there are those that don't believe everything they read or at least look at it critically.




"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#184    Etu Malku

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:51 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 06 November 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

This is also wrong ... Many people have seen spiritual entities. History is quite full of them. I'm not  trying to proove anything.  I'm looking for this "UNDENIABLE FACT" that makes people who have beliefs  delusional. You do see that that is the real claim here don't you? With zero support I might ad.
You must be kidding me, right? I usually take a back seat on this forum out of respect, but if you wish I can supply you with all the information needed to prove how delusional believing in non-corporeal beings is.

History is full of people swaying the story in their favor, and that includes tall tales.
First I will check with a Mod to be sure that what I will be saying is ok and within the limits of this forum.

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#185    Etu Malku

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:52 AM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 06 November 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Or they saw one but they can't prove it
Indeed! :tu:

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#186    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:06 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 07 November 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

You must be kidding me, right? I usually take a back seat on this forum out of respect, but if you wish I can supply you with all the information needed to prove how delusional believing in non-corporeal beings is.

History is full of people swaying the story in their favor, and that includes tall tales.
First I will check with a Mod to be sure that what I will be saying is ok and within the limits of this forum.
Go right ahead lets see the evidence you have?  I'm curiouse.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#187    Etu Malku

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:26 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 07 November 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

Go right ahead lets see the evidence you have?  I'm curiouse.
First I will need you to clarify what you are looking for;
You said

Quote

"I'm looking for this "UNDENIABLE FACT" that makes people who have beliefs  delusional."
. . . and it's spelled curious

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#188    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:05 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 07 November 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

First I will need you to clarify what you are looking for;
You said
. . . and it's spelled curious
Sure... Even a little evidence. :D

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#189    alibongo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:55 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 06 November 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

How so?
seeker79 is suggesting that without suffering we cannot appreciate happiness.
Unfortunately, all that suffering people experience is suffering.We that are not suffering can experience happiness, of course, but that is not because some people are suffering.
Just as an example, those starving to death, or being mistreated in other ways, in many parts of the world, do not make me one whit happier.And my happiness does not decrease their suffering.The arguement is an attempt to impose some sort of order on what are actually random events- the old "why does god allow bad things to happen to good people" conundrum.If you take god out of the picture, complex explanations are not required.


#190    Mr Walker

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:52 AM

View PostAlienated Being, on 06 November 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

I don't have undeniable, irrefutable fact to prove that they do not exist; but if an individual were to assert that they do just because there is no evidence to suggest that they don't is a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantiam.
And if they assert they do because they have encountered them, you refuse to believe them; which is also a argument from ignorance.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#191    Mr Walker

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

The real problem here is that some people with no personal experience of very real paranormal/ supernatural events etc., just refuse to countenance their existence. At all. Ever. For anyone.

They try to impose their disbelief on people who know better, precisely because they have  had real physical experiences with real objective evidences.

I can only guess at their motivations and world views/beliefs in attempting this hegemony.

It is ok for a person without experience to claim personal disbelief, but they cannot logically or correcly claim their ignorance is superior or outweighs the experience of others. They cant claim to KNOW, based on lack of experience, more or better than a person whose claims are based on experience. That's just dumb, as well as rude.

If i meet a real little grey man on a clear summer's night, who provides to me the same evidences /criteria for his independent existence as everything else in my world, then it doesnt matter what  ANYONE else believes (for or against) the existence of aliens.

I  would damned well KNOW they were real. And if i had such an encounter that would mean that, for everyone else on earth, aliens were just as rea,l even if no one else had encountered one. What is real is real, whether it is observed by one person, a million, or none at all.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#192    White Crane Feather

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:16 AM

View Postalibongo, on 07 November 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:


seeker79 is suggesting that without suffering we cannot appreciate happiness.
Unfortunately, all that suffering people experience is suffering.We that are not suffering can experience happiness, of course, but that is not because some people are suffering.
Just as an example, those starving to death, or being mistreated in other ways, in many parts of the world, do not make me one whit happier.And my happiness does not decrease their suffering.The arguement is an attempt to impose some sort of order on what are actually random events- the old "why does god allow bad things to happen to good people" conundrum.If you take god out of the picture, complex explanations are not required.

No, I'm sure it dosnt, nor I, however not experiencing those things certainly does dosnt it? Indeed your observance of another's suffering should make you grateful of your own place. It also provides you with a choice. Help or not help. Do you show compassion and turn it into action or do you feel bad for them and go about your day. You have a choices to decrease their suffering so yes some of your happiness adds to their suffering in the form of an oportunity cost. You don't have these choices without these realities. No choices... No sentience, no definition of who you are.

They are not random in the slightest. There is a long string of causality stemming from choices that lead to nearly every bout of extreme suffering experienced. Yes including cancer, and natural disasters.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#193    Lava_Lady

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:24 AM

Someone once told me that each human's existence/experience is merely a perspective of one consciousness.

So, we express, in our lives, the process of this consciousness' thought... kind of like living out someones stream of thought.  

When "bad" things happen it is a result of our/the consciousness'  negative thoughts.

I was told that this is how the collective consciousness works to create a common experience for the world.

I hope I relayed all that correctly.  It is a huge concept for me to grasp and goes so much deeper than a few sentences that I have to take a break from thinking about it sometimes or I just end up confusing myself.  :dizzy:

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."  - F. Scott Fitzgerald


#194    Jinxdom

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:12 AM

It's not really appreciate. It's more like even "not understand what it is". Without the contrast you cannot understand it.

Just try to explain apple with just the word apple. The conversation would go like this.

dude one  Apple?
dude two   Apple.
dude one  Apple?!??!
dude two   Apple.

At this point if I was dude one I'd end up killing dude two out of pure frustration.

People put to much faith in titles or descriptions. Two people think of the word fairy as completely different things without knowing what the definition is between two people you cannot tell what exactly what fairy is.

It's basically the problem between creationists and evolutionists. They both can't understand that Let there be light and this is a monkey is the same process. Something changes somebody gives what changed a name. They are not whining about different processes they are only arguing about the timelime. Almost like a weird debate of which is better a yard stick or a meter stick.

You may think that non-corporeal beings don't exist but you may want to think about that differently because a character in a book is nothing more then a non-corporeal being. Think of how the Christian god affected your life. A story-book character with no actual body has so much push and sway with the real world.

A ghost maybe a ghost or a hallucination(Or anything else since people complain if I leave something out) the only thing that that really changed was the name.

Again this is why the phrase Evil is absolute(and is the only thing that is evil) was written in the first place. Anything that is limiting to one option or one outlook is usually wrong.

dude two. All Life is good!
dude one. Really? what about Hilter(Any bad guy he was alive.)
dude two. Oh never thought about it that way

See Life isn't good 100% of the time it has to be a neutral thing.

If I see anything in the forest running around like any version of a fairy..... guess what to me that damned thing is gonna be a fairy. I'm not gonna run around and claim fairies exist but I'm sure gonna get drunk with my friends and tell them the I saw a fairy story. There is where the dude no way and then I respond with you had to be there to see it.

Seriously the Idea the base concept of God is the same as love, it's the same as evolution, it's the same as freedom
Everybody is looking forward the beginning or creation, abiogensis, big bang, let there be light, speciation. Nothing more then relative terms. The word God is nothing more then the most complex and most simple version of this process.

Our whole existence depends on the fact that things change.(Even time is a form of change) We only time we can understand is when we compare and contrast.

A tad bit preachy I could possibly the whole I am not here to abolish the law but to fulfill it speech in front of it this and it would fit perfectly.  Lol


#195    Mr Walker

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:31 AM

View PostJor-el, on 06 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Hi Mr. Walker,

I find it interesting that you should say this since it is effectively contradicted directly within the bible... besides the concept of omniscience, there is at least one specific example of God demonstrating that he does know the outcome of events made by personal choice. even more, he seems to know the outcome of all possible events made by a persons choice.
While  some writers of the bible claim omniscience for god, god does not act as person with omnisicience. He interacts with humans as if the future is malleable, and alterable. He also fails in some attempts at things eg in his cleansing of the world throughhte flood because noah eventually falls to sin like all the rest of hummanity If god knew this change in noah would occur, then his plans for the ark and a new sin free world were futile.  God changes his mind after listening to arguments. None of those things is possible/ workable in a world with one fixed linear timeline that god already knows will occur. The revolt of the angels and the fall of man were never  "certain things", and even god, therefore, did not know the outcome, although he knew the potentials. And because there were potentials for great good as well as for great harm, He HAD to take a chance .

I agree that god might know all possible outcomes of a person's choices. He often  shows me future/potential outcomes of some of my choices. But he doesn't know which choice we will make because that is never fixed and we have unfettered free will to make it.

And so he goes to considerable time and effort to influence the choices humans make, in order to maximise outcomes for them, and for societies. He teaches, which is pointless if an outcome is fixed.

Edited by Mr Walker, 07 November 2012 - 09:35 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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