Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

Why did God create us if he knew we would sin


  • Please log in to reply
264 replies to this topic

#61    Bling

Bling

    Psychic Spy

  • Closed
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,384 posts
  • Joined:25 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:55 AM

No wonder I don't believe there's a god....


#62    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 19,354 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:06 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 03 November 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Quite incorrect, it is You that has never met God, simply because there isn't one. The belief structures of people such as yourself have been formed through centuries of confabulation. The "error" is in your Belief, not mine.

There is nothing about the Abrahamic god that is Freedom of Will.
Indeed the meme/mental construct you refer to as God is as real as any other imagined corporeal entity, and as accessible to any and all who believe or are indoctrinated into belief (a.k.a. fooled).

Human beings cannot escape ritual and ceremony, it is a part of being Human, it is just one aspect that separates Us from the rest of the Animal Kingdom.

There are no Belief Systems that do not incorporate ritual and ceremony into their practice.

I have indeed met and lived with god in physical form for over 40 years. There is nothing imaginary about this entity, in that it exists independent of my mind, just as all real things do. What you are attempting to do is insist that your disbelief in the existence of god can somehow out weigh my knolwedge of god. The real world works the other way . Knowledge trumps belief every time You cannot logically suggest that somethng you believe  can mean that something i know is not possible. It is like saying dogs arent real because you have never encountered one. And because of your disbelief in dogs, any dogs I encounter must be unreal..

The only real dilemma/ difficulty is what happens when a total atheist encounters a real and powerful god. They can maintain their disbelief and become delusional, or accept the reality and the truth  and put aside what they believed before they knew better .
i appreciate that some interpretations of the abrahamic god by peole disallow free ill But an unfettered reading of the bible illustrates that like god we have free will. iif we did not we could not chose or act  as we do. God would physically constrain us. Indeed god would simply prevent us having destructive desires and thoughts. The god i know and love is as physically real as myself, my wife and my dog. If you cant accept that then you cannot begin to appreciate its role in my life.

  Since i was a child i have appreciated the significance of human archtypes ego id etc Having watched the forbidden planet aged about  7nd then recognising that it was loosely based on the tempest, I understood exactly the psychological power of the human mind. But that is not the form of god, or being, i am takling about. It is a being like us in awareness, albeit very differnt in form. It has its own purposes desires and intents as we do. It can give to human beings knowedge etc from outside of us and even from outside of our solar system and galaxy.

I disagree about ritual and ceremony. It is an evolved coping mechanism and modern man can recognise this and dispense with it if he chooses. I have no religious ritual or ceremony in my life and almost no secular ritual behaviour. I simply live a personal relationship with god, as i do with my wife and my dog. There are patterns in all those lives but no ritualised behaviours We do what we need to do, to live happily and successfully. Washday is on monday to have clean clothes for the week, not as part of ritualised behaviour, for example.
I wouldn't know about ritualised belief systems. I do not believe in anything, except those things i deliberately invest belief in, like love.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#63    Pupp3t

Pupp3t

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Joined:02 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Within the Bowels of the Mind

  • "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds", verse 32 from chapter 11 of the Bhagavad Gita.

Posted 03 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

I don't think we would have gone down that path. There may have a little glitch in the system whe Creation occurred, and that gave us free will.
Nothing is wrong with free will, but even if we feel oppressed by God, our free will enables us to be easily corrupted by our fellow Humans. We don't really KNOW what is right from wrong, good and evil. Those concepts are preached to us from the media, religion.. etc. Again, they can tell us to do some immoral action and we'll smile and say YES WE SHALL PERFORM YOUR DEED. As demonstrated in the world, we are just that vunerable to ideas. Free will is nice and all, but it can cloud judgement pretty easy.
   Let me let out religion for a moment: :gun: (I know, I know. AH MAN, A PREACHER. WATCH OUT GUIZE.)
When Man decided to rebel against God (the Apple incident), God withdrew some of His power from the Earth. This is why the Earth decays, bad things occur, and such. When we were condemned to Hell, God didn't send us to it. We did so ourselves because remember: we have free will nw. We should already know the consequences of our actions.
   Alright, back to you guys:
The relationship between God and Man can be seen as a father/mother to their child. They love their child, and then their child stumbles across some notion. An idea. Rebellion, perhaps? Hatred? They're introduced to the "real" world, and the innocence that Bling spoke of is at risk. The child starts to act out of his/gher own will: drinking because "Screw the world!", smoking because "Screw you, Dad!", the whole melodramatic deal. The child has that choice to love or hate their parents, usually hating their parents. Despite what they think, the parents still love them, even if they don't show it well.
   My opinion upon the matter is that perhaps God created us, and somehow, He didn't see something coming. Whatever happened that gave us free will, He still has to love us despite what WE feel about him.


#64    Supersquatch

Supersquatch

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 486 posts
  • Joined:30 Jul 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth, Milky Way, Local Group

  • Supersquatch powers, activate!

Posted 03 November 2012 - 03:39 PM

View PostPupp3t, on 03 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

My opinion upon the matter is that perhaps God created us, and somehow, He didn't see something coming.

But isn't God omniscient?

Posted Image

#65    Pupp3t

Pupp3t

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 43 posts
  • Joined:02 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Within the Bowels of the Mind

  • "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds", verse 32 from chapter 11 of the Bhagavad Gita.

Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:14 PM

He is. So are we, to an extent.Weknow what goes on in our lives. We set an unchanging system of order in our lives. Things must be perfect. One little change in that sytem causes our lives to drastically change.
Maybe that's what happened. He is omniscient, but WHAT IF this scenrio occurred? I'm only implying this. Nobody really knows what occurred at Creation. The Bible was written by Man, and I'm sure nobody lived to the first year of the Universe's creation.


#66    JGirl

JGirl

    Pajama Goddess

  • Member
  • 9,036 posts
  • Joined:23 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:British Columbia Canada

Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:37 PM

humans mess up, they make mistakes - some of which are really nasty - that is an unfortunate reality that we live with on this planet.
i don't think it has anything to do with god or why we ended up here.
'sin'  is a guilt trip.


#67    notoverrated

notoverrated

    O.O

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts
  • Joined:18 Jul 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas

  • courage > scooby

Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:18 PM

idk why have a baby if its going to make mistakes.

If your not after beauty, then why are you even drawing breath?

#68    Etu Malku

Etu Malku

    Paranormal Investigator

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 847 posts
  • Joined:03 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:39 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 November 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

I have indeed met and lived with god in physical form for over 40 years. There is nothing imaginary about this entity, in that it exists independent of my mind, just as all real things do. What you are attempting to do is insist that your disbelief in the existence of god can somehow out weigh my knolwedge of god. The real world works the other way . Knowledge trumps belief every time You cannot logically suggest that somethng you believe  can mean that something i know is not possible. It is like saying dogs arent real because you have never encountered one. And because of your disbelief in dogs, any dogs I encounter must be unreal..

The only real dilemma/ difficulty is what happens when a total atheist encounters a real and powerful god. They can maintain their disbelief and become delusional, or accept the reality and the truth  and put aside what they believed before they knew better .
i appreciate that some interpretations of the abrahamic god by peole disallow free ill But an unfettered reading of the bible illustrates that like god we have free will. iif we did not we could not chose or act  as we do. God would physically constrain us. Indeed god would simply prevent us having destructive desires and thoughts. The god i know and love is as physically real as myself, my wife and my dog. If you cant accept that then you cannot begin to appreciate its role in my life.

  Since i was a child i have appreciated the significance of human archtypes ego id etc Having watched the forbidden planet aged about  7nd then recognising that it was loosely based on the tempest, I understood exactly the psychological power of the human mind. But that is not the form of god, or being, i am takling about. It is a being like us in awareness, albeit very differnt in form. It has its own purposes desires and intents as we do. It can give to human beings knowedge etc from outside of us and even from outside of our solar system and galaxy.

I disagree about ritual and ceremony. It is an evolved coping mechanism and modern man can recognise this and dispense with it if he chooses. I have no religious ritual or ceremony in my life and almost no secular ritual behaviour. I simply live a personal relationship with god, as i do with my wife and my dog. There are patterns in all those lives but no ritualised behaviours We do what we need to do, to live happily and successfully. Washday is on monday to have clean clothes for the week, not as part of ritualised behaviour, for example.
I wouldn't know about ritualised belief systems. I do not believe in anything, except those things i deliberately invest belief in, like love.
All Belief systems are ritualized, some just mask the word to separate it from those "other" heathen systems . . . LOL!
See, I never said I don't believe in this god, matter of fact I explained exactly what this god is . . . and that is all this god is, a meme/thoughtform Gone Wild!

View Postnotoverrated, on 03 November 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

idk why have a baby if its going to make mistakes.
Because we can? :innocent:

Tarkhem Productions
   IAMTHATIAMNOT

#69    notoverrated

notoverrated

    O.O

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,244 posts
  • Joined:18 Jul 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kansas

  • courage > scooby

Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:46 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 03 November 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

All Belief systems are ritualized, some just mask the word to separate it from those "other" heathen systems . . . LOL!
See, I never said I don't believe in this god, matter of fact I explained exactly what this god is . . . and that is all this god is, a meme/thoughtform Gone Wild!

Because we can? :innocent:
probably the best answer we will ever get.

If your not after beauty, then why are you even drawing breath?

#70    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Seeker79

  • Member
  • 12,999 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:12 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 03 November 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

All Belief systems are ritualized....
Leave out the word "system" and you are completely wrong. Not all spiritual people follow systems.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#71    FlyingAngel

FlyingAngel

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • Joined:29 Jul 2009
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:37 PM

To sin is a part of creating a perfect world. Thus he also created regret and forgiveness. People learn from mistakes, some didn't or can't. When you try to prevent a child to do something stupid, you stop him but you don't explain why, the child will live his life as you dictated but he won't really understand why he should live that way.

For example, when a person saves another person from an accident, you'd rather hear him says "because saving people is a good thing to do" instead of "because saving people are in our nature", that's meaningless. When you do something great, you put your compassion, your soul, your reason to do the task; you are not a robot that executed a bunch of codes just to accomplish the task and to not violate any rule.

Though, some of the rules of the nature have to be considered:
- food, water don't fall from the sky
- if people are lazy, don't work => no food
- food comes from trees, so if people destroy trees for wood, forest for space, where would the food come from?
- if food is given by killing animals, why should animals has  to suffer but not humans?
- if the number of trees (thus fruits) is a constant or decreasing, why should the number of humans increasing?

The primitive world is aimed to be perfect. But I think it's us that generated the problems and it's selfish to ask God to magically fix it when we have enough knowledge to resolve the problem.

Edited by FlyingAngel, 03 November 2012 - 08:41 PM.


#72    Etu Malku

Etu Malku

    Paranormal Investigator

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 847 posts
  • Joined:03 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 03 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Leave out the word "system" and you are completely wrong. Not all spiritual people follow systems.
Right, and you are left with just "Belief" which is purely subjective and without any physical evidence.
The Father of Belief is Faith . . . both are delusions.

Tarkhem Productions
   IAMTHATIAMNOT

#73    Etu Malku

Etu Malku

    Paranormal Investigator

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 847 posts
  • Joined:03 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:18 PM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 03 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

To sin is a part of creating a perfect world. Thus he also created regret and forgiveness. People learn from mistakes, some didn't or can't. When you try to prevent a child to do something stupid, you stop him but you don't explain why, the child will live his life as you dictated but he won't really understand why he should live that way.

For example, when a person saves another person from an accident, you'd rather hear him says "because saving people is a good thing to do" instead of "because saving people are in our nature", that's meaningless. When you do something great, you put your compassion, your soul, your reason to do the task; you are not a robot that executed a bunch of codes just to accomplish the task and to not violate any rule.

Though, some of the rules of the nature have to be considered:
- food, water don't fall from the sky
- if people are lazy, don't work => no food
- food comes from trees, so if people destroy trees for wood, forest for space, where would the food come from?
- if food is given by killing animals, why should animals has  to suffer but not humans?
- if the number of trees (thus fruits) is a constant or decreasing, why should the number of humans increasing?

The primitive world is aimed to be perfect. But I think it's us that generated the problems and it's selfish to ask God to magically fix it when we have enough knowledge to resolve the problem.
Sin is a product of the Abrahamic mind, it is a fabrication of guilt intended to enslave its sheeple . . . in essence there is no such thing as Sin, it is a lie.

- food, water don't fall from the sky - I've seen water fall from the sky, it's called rain. The Sun is a source of life and energy to most creatures, it's in the sky as well.

- if people are lazy, don't work => no food - LOL, have you seen the welfare lines? The middle class feeds the rest of the world.

- food comes from trees, so if people destroy trees for wood, forest for space, where would the food come from? - Fish? Vegetables? Animals?

- if food is given by killing animals, why should animals has  to suffer but not humans? - Because we are at the top of the food chain, and that is the pecking order, that's just too bad.

- if the number of trees (thus fruits) is a constant or decreasing, why should the number of humans increasing? Because mankind's first instinct is to survive, and we do it better than anything else on this planet. A better answer would be that mankind thinks with its little head instead of its big head . . . :whistle:

Tarkhem Productions
   IAMTHATIAMNOT

#74    Supersquatch

Supersquatch

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 486 posts
  • Joined:30 Jul 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Earth, Milky Way, Local Group

  • Supersquatch powers, activate!

Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:20 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 03 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Leave out the word "system" and you are completely wrong. Not all spiritual people follow systems.

That's why he didn't leave out the word "system."

Posted Image

#75    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 19,354 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:31 PM

View Postnotoverrated, on 03 November 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

idk why have a baby if its going to make mistakes.
Are you really serious?

You have a baby (philosophically speaking) because of its potential. That includes to make mistakes but also to chose for good, to be creative and constructive,  to make the world a better place.. Every individual human adds to humanity. Making mistakes is inevitable. Iti s what we learn from those mistakes, and how we act the next time we are faced with the same choice, which defines us as individuals.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users