264 replies to this topic

[notoverrated]

Mr Walker, on 03 November 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

Are you really serious?

You have a baby (philosophically speaking) because of its potential. That includes to make mistakes but also to chose for good, to be creative and constructive,  to make the world a better place.. Every individual human adds to humanity. Making mistakes is inevitable. Iti s what we learn from those mistakes, and how we act the next time we are faced with the same choice, which defines us as individuals.

it was more of a counter argument man.

[Bling]

Has anyone answered my original question yet?

Why would God create humans knowing that a vast number of them would suffer in this life? Does eternity really make up for a life of war, fear, hunger, or _______ (insert issue here).

[Etu Malku]

Bling, on 03 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Has anyone answered my original question yet?

Why would God create humans knowing that a vast number of them would suffer in this life? Does eternity really make up for a life of war, fear, hunger, or _______ (insert issue here).

By "God" I assume you are speaking of the Abrahamic god?
If so then quite simply, no one in their right mind would allow or cause the suffering of another, especially their own child, therefore it is safe to assume that this god is a malicious, indifferent, unloving god . . . an evil god as described by the Gnostics.

Knowing that I would not bestow suffering upon another, much less my own child, raises Me high above this wicked creature that has enslaved so many.

  Just Sayin'

[Mr Walker]

notoverrated, on 03 November 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

it was more of a counter argument man.

Ah I understand. I hadn't seen the previous posts  but I can see how you were responding now.

[Mr Walker]

Etu Malku, on 03 November 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

By "God" I assume you are speaking of the Abrahamic god?
If so then quite simply, no one in their right mind would allow or cause the suffering of another, especially their own child, therefore it is safe to assume that this god is a malicious, indifferent, unloving god . . . an evil god as described by the Gnostics.

Knowing that I would not bestow suffering upon another, much less my own child, raises Me high above this wicked creature that has enslaved so many.

  Just Sayin'

Ok so HOW does anyone, god or ordinary parent, prevent their creation from suffering from pain, stress, environmental extremes etc.? When you had a child did you not know that their life would include pain suffering grief etc? Are you  malicious indifferent or unloving; knowing that child will be born in pain and suffering and will experince it at ongoing points in its life? Of course not. What god does do, is show us how to, and help us to, transcend those things, and empower us to overcome the natural pain and suffering of life.

God eases grief, reduces pain, lessens stress a nd depression, helps us be strong loving compassionate to ourselves and to others. God intercedes between ourselves and our world and also between our darker parts and our lighter ones.

[eight bits]

Bling

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Has anyone answered my original question yet?

Why would God create humans knowing that a vast number of them would suffer in this life? Does eternity really make up for a life of war, fear, hunger, or _______ (insert issue here).

Funny, I thought I did address your OP, back in post 19. Perhaps that was not the direction you were hoping to go in. If not, then some further guidance about where you did want to go would be helpful. In any case, engagement of those who did attempt to answer, even if only to tell them  that wasn't what you were looking for, may be more effective than just repeating the question.


EM

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If so then quite simply, no one in their right mind would allow or cause the suffering of another, especially their own child

Curious bit of rhetoric. Every child comes into the world with the certainty that he or she or will die, and the overwhelming likelihood that that death will be miserable, painful and leave a mess. As Aldous Huxley put it, begetting is postponed assassination. Between the traumas of birth and death, there will be plenty of other suffering for the child to endure as well.

All of this suffering can be avoided, of course, simply by not begetting. This strategy doesn't seem very popular, though. It seems that it is thought possible, for some, that other aspects of existence might "make up for" (to use the OP's phrase) suffering from a life of "war, fear, hunger or ____,"  and that's before any compensatory action outside of time is thrown into the mix.

If that were true, to the satisfaction of the child, then the cruelty would be to deny the child existence, I would think. The mere possibility that it is so, for some, creates a decision under uncertainty. That one person would decide differently than you would does not imply that the other person isn't "in their right mind." It means the two of you disgaree about something which is a matter of personal opinion.

[FlyingAngel]

Bling, on 03 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Has anyone answered my original question yet?

Why would God create humans knowing that a vast number of them would suffer in this life? Does eternity really make up for a life of war, fear, hunger, or _______ (insert issue here).

Because the purpose of creating humans is not to ensure that they would be never suffer? He's probably expecting something more from us than worship, peace and happiness

As post #76 says, it's probably because we have potential to make something big

Edited by FlyingAngel, 04 November 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Etu Malku]

Mr Walker, on 04 November 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Ok so HOW does anyone, god or ordinary parent, prevent their creation from suffering from pain, stress, environmental extremes etc.?

But we're not omnipotent/omniscient, and if I recall in Abrahamic mythology, it was through the actions of Adam & Eve that there exists suffering. Now, an omnipotent/omniscient god surely new all this would happen and not allowed it to but enabled it to as well.

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When you had a child did you not know that their life would include pain suffering grief etc?

Like any decent parent I do what I can to minimize any suffering in my children, so far so good.

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Are you  malicious indifferent or unloving; knowing that child will be born in pain and suffering and will experince it at ongoing points in its life? Of course not.

I believe we are speaking about two different things here, you seem to be speaking about the trials and tribulations of everyday human existence, the things that make all of us who we are and individuals, pitfalls and triumphs. I am speaking about this Abrahamic notion of spiritual suffering brought about by defying a so called loving god.

When your child disobeys you, do you damn them?

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What god does do, is show us how to, and help us to, transcend those things, and empower us to overcome the natural pain and suffering of life. God eases grief, reduces pain, lessens stress a nd depression, helps us be strong loving compassionate to ourselves and to others. God intercedes between ourselves and our world and also between our darker parts and our lighter ones.

I agree, religion is useful for comforting and creating community, but we can and used to do this on our own without the crutch of religion.

[Pupp3t]

Etu, that may be a good point. You CAN be able to shelter your child from forms of suffering, but what about when they have to be on their own. What do you think they will learn from the cruel reality of the outside? They can learn anything. Maybe they'll believe wrongly that you're overprotecting them.
Or perhaps something bad happened to them. They wouldn't understand how to solve the problem.

[Seeker79]

Etu Malku, on 03 November 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Right, and you are left with just "Belief" which is purely subjective and without any physical evidence.
The Father of Belief is Faith . . . both are delusions.

Wrong again. Many have plenty of evidence. There are many kinds of evidence. Physical empirical evidence is only part of an evidence body and is just as subject to inmense flaws as the others.

The father of belief is evidence wether it be good or bad interpretations. There are concentric rings of knowledge ultimately resting on the unknowable therefore any judgments about ultimate reality is purely philisophical. Certain philosophies can be prooven valid or invalid. Materialism for example is a philosophy that is prooven wrong by quantum machanics.

[Bling]

eight bits, on 04 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Bling



Funny, I thought I did address your OP, back in post 19. Perhaps that was not the direction you were hoping to go in. If not, then some further guidance about where you did want to go would be helpful. In any case, engagement of those who did attempt to answer, even if only to tell them  that wasn't what you were looking for, may be more effective than just repeating the question.

You're the only one here are you? What makes you think I'm referring to you? It was just something I threw out there...I don't need advice how to contribute to the discussion!

[eight bits]

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What makes you think I'm referring to you?

Because you asked "Has anyone answered my original question yet?" and  "Yes, eight bits did, in his post #19" is a truthful answer to your question.

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I don't need advice how to contribute to the discussion!

Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

Let me rephrase. Was my answer in post #19 not the direction you wished to go in? If it was not, then could you please explain why not, and thereby provide guidance, to benefit all members of our community, as to the direction in which you do want to go?

Thank you ever so much.

Edited by eight bits, 04 November 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Bling]

eight bits, on 04 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Let me rephrase. Was my answer in post #19 not the direction you wished to go in? If it was not, then could you please explain why not, and thereby provide guidance, to benefit all members of our community, as to the direction in which you do want to go?

I didn't have a 'direction' in mind, that's not how a public discussion forum works....you go with the flow. I merely asked a question - which I am entitled to do

[Pupp3t]

And of course, we answer the question stated as best we can, WITHOUT pissing people off. XD

[Star of the Sea]

Hi Bling,

Just thought I would give you my thoughts on the matter. Eight Bits completely nailed it with:

"It is possible that this would be the answer to your first question as well. If it is not possible to exist without ever suffering, then God cannot exist without ever suffering, either"

The way I see it, God gave us "freewill" which gives us the capacity to sin. We can make our choice whether to follow him or not. Therefore, by following God (Jesus) that love is reciprocated with the gift of eternal life and therefore in the end all suffering is wiped out. I just can't see how it would/could of been possible for God to have made us any other way i.e: without 'freewill'. He can't force us to love him. Therefore, it must 'pain' God when he loses one of us.

Edited by Star of the Sea, 04 November 2012 - 08:08 PM.