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Taxing the Rich


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#136    ninjadude

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:08 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 13 December 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

The basic premise of our government is to ensure opportunities remain available, not to give you stuff, money or a sustainable living but to ensure that you have the opportunity to seek those things, not the ability to.

Ravenhawk was suggesting that government is like business and the people who put in should get a good return on investment. This is simply ludicrous.

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#137    F3SS

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:16 PM

View Postninjadude, on 13 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Because it would be valueless. And of course no one is advocating printing it to that extreme. The world is not black and white.
Yea I was being extreme but so is saying we can't go broke because we can keep printing it.

View Postninjadude, on 13 December 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Ravenhawk was suggesting that government is like business and the people who put in should get a good return on investment. This is simply ludicrous.
Holy smokes, you've made sense. Now let me ask you why, if believing that, do you think it's such a good idea to keep putting money unto their control? You actually being quite hypocritical to your usual banter which is that entitlement and welfare spending is a good investment towards the overall economy. You say our "investment" produces valuable productive citizens but if it's a government made investment wouldn't that make it ludicrous?

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#138    Michelle

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:21 PM

View Postninjadude, on 13 December 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Ravenhawk was suggesting that government is like business and the people who put in should get a good return on investment. This is simply ludicrous.

Don't you think it would be a good investment, to be on government assistance, if you would be required to go to school to learn a new trade, or a trade period, for free or on a low interest loan when they get a job? I mean, instead of sitting on their behinds doing nothing? After all, that is what the more socialist countries do.


#139    ninjadude

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:38 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 13 December 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

Holy smokes, you've made sense. Now let me ask you why, if believing that, do you think it's such a good idea to keep putting money unto their control? You actually being quite hypocritical to your usual banter which is that entitlement and welfare spending is a good investment towards the overall economy. You say our "investment" produces valuable productive citizens but if it's a government made investment wouldn't that make it ludicrous?

Not at all. A society has a vested interest in the health and well being of it's citizens. All of them - not just the ones that pay into it (which is what Ravenhawk was advocating).

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#140    ninjadude

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:49 AM

View PostMichelle, on 13 December 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Don't you think it would be a good investment, to be on government assistance, if you would be required to go to school to learn a new trade, or a trade period, for free or on a low interest loan when they get a job? I mean, instead of sitting on their behinds doing nothing? After all, that is what the more socialist countries do.

What makes you think that's not how it works? let's be clear. Most of the country gets some kind of government assistance. From loans and credits to payments. Unemployment insurance and TANF are time limited. SS is paid for by workers. Medicare has tremendous cost savings in health. ADC - well certainly we can't let children starve and be homeless, right - my "Society has a vested interest ...". So that leaves able bodied men and women with few or no children for your government welfare. Just how rich do you think they are? These are the very poor. And there are programs to get them trained and jobs. It's tough when you may not have a place to live, food on the table and any money you make subtracts from the pittance you get from welfare. It simply amazes me that people think that welfare is this cushy life. It's just not so. Finally, watch 60min from one of the last few weeks. Almost no one wants to train workers. They want cookie cutter employees all ready to go. It's amazing that 60min had to extol the virtues of a few companies that actually had to temerity to train workers.

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#141    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:52 AM

View Postninjadude, on 14 December 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Not at all. A society has a vested interest in the health and well being of it's citizens. All of them - not just the ones that pay into it (which is what Ravenhawk was advocating).

do you mean society or goverment? because if my nieghbor get's sick and dies it really dosen't affect me other then his wife may need to go on goverment assistance and I have to pay for that. the goverment has a vested intrest in it's citezens health in the form of tax-paying so that they can turn around and use that money to pay for social programs. what a visicious circle that will bleed this country dry.

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#142    DieChecker

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:00 AM

View PostTiggs, on 13 December 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

If you want to see where the US is in relation to everyone else - here's a handy comparison map from The Atlantic.


Posted Image


Next stop, Mexico, with a GINI coefficient of 0.55. Not a country exactly renown for it's burgeoning middle class.

So if we simply were to eliminate altogether the very top half percent. Seized their goods and wealth, and the GINI dropped everything would be wonderful?

Is simply knocking down the very top of the pinnicle of wealth really going ot Fix anything?

My belief is the the US should be working to lift up the bottom 10%, not tear down the top 1%.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#143    Michelle

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:05 AM

View Postninjadude, on 14 December 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

What makes you think that's not how it works? let's be clear. Most of the country gets some kind of government assistance. From loans and credits to payments. Unemployment insurance and TANF are time limited. SS is paid for by workers. Medicare has tremendous cost savings in health. ADC - well certainly we can't let children starve and be homeless, right - my "Society has a vested interest ...". So that leaves able bodied men and women with few or no children for your government welfare. Just how rich do you think they are? These are the very poor. And there are programs to get them trained and jobs. It's tough when you may not have a place to live, food on the table and any money you make subtracts from the pittance you get from welfare. It simply amazes me that people think that welfare is this cushy life. It's just not so. Finally, watch 60min from one of the last few weeks. Almost no one wants to train workers. They want cookie cutter employees all ready to go. It's amazing that 60min had to extol the virtues of a few companies that actually had to temerity to train workers.

Surely, you don't mean most of the people are on some kind of government assistance. Romney only said 47% and you saw where that got him. ;)

i've explained, time and time again, how and why I know the people who work the system as well as I do...at least in my area. They don't make it a secret, especially in the line of work I grew up in and am in now. I'm not going to go into it again. The amount of talented people, that my husband has personally trained and recommended to other companies, where they could make more money. Some of them have made it and some of them have crapped out. But we gave them the opportunity...and they either came out the better for it, or all of the time was wasted. I hate how much time was taken away from our lives, on worthless people that went nowhere...even given the advantages of being trained by one of the best welders in the Southern US. (That is not biased, but what the Southeast nuclear reactor x-ray inspectors said)

Forgive me if I am cynical about people wanting to get off government assistance. It's so much easier to lay up with a girlfriend, that has two or three kids that aren't yours, than to get hot and dirty at work and have to pay child support, for the kids that they actually had by three different women, because they have no job.

I'm not only cynical about it....I'm damned mad!

Edited by Michelle, 14 December 2012 - 06:17 AM.


#144    DieChecker

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:12 AM

View PostMichelle, on 14 December 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

Surely, you don't mean most of the people are on some kind of government assistance. Romney only said 47% and you saw where that got him. ;)

He's being cute by lumping in anyone that takes tax deductions and adjustments...

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#145    The Silver Thong

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:26 AM

View PostMichelle, on 13 December 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Don't you think it would be a good investment, to be on government assistance, if you would be required to go to school to learn a new trade, or a trade period, for free or on a low interest loan when they get a job? I mean, instead of sitting on their behinds doing nothing? After all, that is what the more socialist countries do.


Not if prison provides three hots and a cot. Oh and plus free cable and internet as it would be a human rights violation not to lol.  How do the rich treat prison hmmm they don't so we have to look at that a well.

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#146    Michelle

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:33 AM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 14 December 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

Not if prison provides three hots and a cot. Oh and plus free cable and internet as it would be a human rights violation not to lol.  How do the rich treat prison hmmm they don't so we have to look at that a well.

If they take Martha Stewart's cue they'd make a ton. :w00t: :whistle:


#147    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:20 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 14 December 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

So if we simply were to eliminate altogether the very top half percent. Seized their goods and wealth, and the GINI dropped everything would be wonderful?

Is simply knocking down the very top of the pinnicle of wealth really going ot Fix anything?

Who do you think is suggesting that, exactly?

Quote

My belief is the the US should be working to lift up the bottom 10%, not tear down the top 1%.

How very J F Kennedy of you.

Perhaps you'd like to walk us through how you think it's achievable to reduce the income inequality in the US via modern day Conservative principles?


#148    questionmark

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:04 PM

View PostTiggs, on 14 December 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

How very J F Kennedy of you.

Perhaps you'd like to walk us through how you think it's achievable to reduce the income inequality in the US via modern day Conservative principles?

Where we have to add, during the time where the US was actually well off the income taxes were considerably higher than what they are right now:

Posted Image
With that curve one could argue that with the decline on taxation also came the decline of the country.

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#149    Yamato

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:24 PM

View PostTiggs, on 13 December 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Correct. Declining Growth from an initial negative position, however, will quickly lead to a Depression.




Unsustainable stagflation would be a bad thing. Fortunately, since inflation has yet to even reach the historic average - and since current projections seem to have it at under 2% in the mid-term - I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over it, anytime soon.
Ahh the consumer price index, the government's own selective measure of inflation.  How fortunate.   Let's not bring up historic averages when it comes to the national debt or something.  Let's only bring up such a thing when it helps us make our point which is always very busy at ignoring the debt.

This is unsustainable stagflation and it is a bad thing, not that stagflation is anything that anyone would want to sustain, but that's the best we can get with overspending that we're not even paying for till later plus interest.  If that's the best we can do in the environment we're doing it in today, we are screwed.   Let's just not think of how high interest rates can go when ignorance is good for insomnia.

But whether it affects you personally is irrelevant.  Though prices are absurdly high in S. California of all places.   Housing prices in California are up 19.3% in the past year alone.  But don't worry, when severe price inflation like that occurs, someone will call it a "recovery" since they aren't the ones buying a house.  It's all a matter of perspective and what side of the transaction we're on and government's perspective is ludicrous when they're the ones who got us into the massive buildup of debt that we're in.  It's so easy for some people to keep their heads in the sand and pretend that interest rates are going to stay this low forever.   Helicopter Ben and his magical zeroes are going to continue not producing any real organic growth in the economy and will just continue inflating the money supply forever?   Of course everyone will say no, they'll stop when there's no need to (as if there's a need to now).  And that belies the fact that they're not doing anything to produce a real recovery, they're only preventing the real recovery by papering over troubled assets and propping up prices artificially high.

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#150    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:16 PM

View PostYamato, on 14 December 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Ahh the consumer price index, the government's own selective measure of inflation.  How fortunate.   Let's not bring up historic averages when it comes to the national debt or something.  Let's only bring up such a thing when it helps us make our point which is always very busy at ignoring the debt.

This is unsustainable stagflation...

An inflation rate of less than 2% is stagflation. Said absolutely no economist, ever.





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