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Taxing the Rich


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#151    DieChecker

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:37 PM

View PostTiggs, on 14 December 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

Who do you think is suggesting that, exactly?
Isn't that the idea behind Tax Fairness? If you can get the super rich to pay much higher taxes, then the fairness... the inequality index... would move toward being more "Fair" like it is in most of Europe. Which you, Tiggs, seemed to be trying to say would make us a better economicly stable nation. Reference... you saying, "Next stop Mexico".

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How very J F Kennedy of you.

Perhaps you'd like to walk us through how you think it's achievable to reduce the income inequality in the US via modern day Conservative principles?
I did not say it was necessary. Just that I would aim at the lower percentages, who live in bad conditions, and lift them up, rather then trying to tear down people who are successful, simply for being successful.

How to bring up the bottom 10%?? Perhaps with nationally run training centers to educate and train people, rather then simply handing out a check each month. There are millions of structures across the US that are abandoned, and could be used to teach those who have no money and no hope. All that would be required is supplies and teachers. The teachers could be supplied by local business and those businesses would get a giant tax credit to do so. People would get trained and employed, and business would get taxes breaks, and abandoned buildings would get renovated and used. Hows that for a start? Not sure it is Conservative philosophy, but then I am not just a Conservative mouthpiece, I'm an individual thinking human being.

Saying, "Use conservatism to explain how to do this" is actually a devisive statement that implys there are only two ideologies and only one is right... Which is simply not true. There are a thousand shades of grey that should exist. The polization of politics is due to this demand to explain why one far Right, or far Left stand, is the better stand. When given only black or white and trying to figure out a grey solution, it is no wonder that everyone gets heated and intense. When it is most likely that somewhere in the middle is the best stand.

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#152    Tiggs

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 14 December 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

Isn't that the idea behind Tax Fairness? If you can get the super rich to pay much higher taxes, then the fairness... the inequality index... would move toward being more "Fair" like it is in most of Europe. Which you, Tiggs, seemed to be trying to say would make us a better economicly stable nation. Reference... you saying, "Next stop Mexico".

But that's not what you said.

You said "So if we simply were to eliminate altogether the very top half percent. Seized their goods and wealth" - suggesting  that we take all of their money and possessions by force.

If you can't see the difference between that and allowing a temporary tax cut to expire - a tax cut that was originally given to the rich on the basis that there was a budget surplus - then I'm not entirely sure what to tell you.

In terms of what income inequality does to a society - then Richard Wilkinson's TED talk is a perfect place to start. Simply put, however, shortening the distance between income levels  makes things better - and it doesn't make any difference as to whether the top come down or the bottom go up in income. Just the relative difference between the two.

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I did not say it was necessary. Just that I would aim at the lower percentages, who live in bad conditions, and lift them up, rather then trying to tear down people who are successful, simply for being successful.

How to bring up the bottom 10%?? Perhaps with nationally run training centers to educate and train people, rather then simply handing out a check each month. There are millions of structures across the US that are abandoned, and could be used to teach those who have no money and no hope. All that would be required is supplies and teachers. The teachers could be supplied by local business and those businesses would get a giant tax credit to do so. People would get trained and employed, and business would get taxes breaks, and abandoned buildings would get renovated and used. Hows that for a start? Not sure it is Conservative philosophy, but then I am not just a Conservative mouthpiece, I'm an individual thinking human being.

Interesting idea, right up until the "People will get trained and employed" part. It's that whole employment bit that I think you'll find might be somewhat tricky.

Like you (and JFK) I'd much rather that we lifted the bottom 10%. This chart, however, shows the reality of the last 50 years or so, It doesn't seem to matter which side of the aisle are in power - the guys at the bottom don't go anywhere.


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Quote

Saying, "Use conservatism to explain how to do this" is actually a devisive statement that implys there are only two ideologies and only one is right... Which is simply not true. There are a thousand shades of grey that should exist. The polization of politics is due to this demand to explain why one far Right, or far Left stand, is the better stand. When given only black or white and trying to figure out a grey solution, it is no wonder that everyone gets heated and intense. When it is most likely that somewhere in the middle is the best stand.


The idea of compromise is fine - except you can't compromise on a Boolean decision. You either increase taxes or you don't.

The reason I asked you to use modern day Conservative principles is because I believed from your various posts that you were a modern day Conservative.

Apparently not. My Apologies.


#153    Yamato

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:50 AM

View PostTiggs, on 14 December 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

An inflation rate of less than 2% is stagflation. Said absolutely no economist, ever.

``We're right in the middle of it right now,' I think the `flation' part will heat up and I think the `stag' part will get worse.'' ~ Warren Buffett

http://www.bloomberg...id=amCCz4wNzVCE

Heck Peter Schiff even testified to it before the US Congress.   So what you meant to say is, no economist that matters to your opinion ever-absolutely said it.

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#154    Tiggs

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

A Warren Buffet quote from 4 years ago, pre-crash, is hardly relevant to today's economy.


#155    Yamato

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:12 AM

View PostTiggs, on 15 December 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

A Warren Buffet quote from 4 years ago, pre-crash, is hardly relevant to today's economy.
It is when you actually read the quote.  But whatever, your claim was plain wrong.  "Absolutely ever" it ain't.

Trusting ridiculous numbers from the government that you know full well don't reflect reality doesn't help the credibility of your inflation claim.   On one hand you want to help lift the bottom 10%.  On the other, you want to ignore the rampant inflation of the largest expense that poor people pay.   Putting food in their mouths and staying alive!   That is a conflict of interest and no, throwing more government biscuits at the problem isn't going to help any more than it's "helped" already.  

The government has entire departments dedicated to these areas where prices inflate the most and that's not an amazing coincidence.   Energy, Education, Agriculture.  Thankfully we don't have a Department of Computers or my AMD 990FX mainboard would have run me $20,000, and yet if it was only 1% more expensive than it was last year, you'd be assuring me that there's nothing to worry about.

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#156    Tiggs

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:34 AM

View PostYamato, on 16 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

It is when you actually read the quote.  But whatever, your claim was plain wrong.  "Absolutely ever" it ain't.

Y'know - if you really want to believe that the American economy is currently in a period of stagflation - that the rate of inflation is vastly outstripping the country's economic growth and that the Government is lying to you about the state of the economy - then be my guest.


#157    Yamato

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:01 AM

View PostTiggs, on 16 December 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Y'know - if you really want to believe that the American economy is currently in a period of stagflation - that the rate of inflation is vastly outstripping the country's economic growth and that the Government is lying to you about the state of the economy - then be my guest.
It doesn't need to be "vastly" for my belief to coincide with my wallet, but yes, if you're hosting, I'll bring the wine.

It's not my belief that the CPI is a fudged number.   Government blatantly admits hiding the true increases in the aggregate cost we must pay for living.  You're using the CPI in your discussions like it's a good aggregate figure and you know it's not.   It's deceiving you by hiding costs we MUST pay and including a lot of non-inflationary costs that we DON'T have to pay.   No matter how many times or ways you're shown how bad inflation is out there, you just don't acknowledge it, and that stubborn acquiescence to the inflation tax doesn't serve the poor or middle class especially.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#158    Tiggs

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:59 PM

View PostYamato, on 16 December 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:


It doesn't need to be "vastly" for my belief to coincide with my wallet, but yes, if you're hosting, I'll bring the wine.

It's not my belief that the CPI is a fudged number.   Government blatantly admits hiding the true increases in the aggregate cost we must pay for living.  You're using the CPI in your discussions like it's a good aggregate figure and you know it's not.   It's deceiving you by hiding costs we MUST pay and including a lot of non-inflationary costs that we DON'T have to pay.   No matter how many times or ways you're shown how bad inflation is out there, you just don't acknowledge it, and that stubborn acquiescence to the inflation tax doesn't serve the poor or middle class especially.
I know nothing of the sort.

Evidence, please, that the cost of living index is fraudulent.



#159    F3SS

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

View PostYamato, on 16 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:


Trusting ridiculous numbers from the government that you know full well don't reflect reality doesn't help the credibility of your inflation claim.  
That is a conflict of interest and no, throwing more government biscuits at the problem isn't going to help any more than it's "helped" already.  

Those are two of the most sensible sentences I've read in a long time.

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#160    Tiggs

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:38 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 16 December 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Those are two of the most sensible sentences I've read in a long time.

Whereas, I prefer my economics without conspiracy theories.


#161    F3SS

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:31 PM

There is nothing conspiratorial about that. Government lies all the time and more government programs will not help more than they already have. All they do is keep the poor poor and take away more from the middle class. It takes from the rich too but the effect isn't as noticeable in their lives, not that that means its any more right either.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 16 December 2012 - 08:31 PM.

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#162    Tiggs

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 16 December 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

There is nothing conspiratorial about that. Government lies all the time

Why would the Government lie about the rate of inflation? What is it, exactly, that you believe they have to gain from doing so?


#163    sam12six

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:49 AM

I don't think there's ever going to be a way to eliminate poverty. Every society in history has had obscenely rich people and bitterly poor people (unless they enslaved the poor, then they were gainfully employed, I guess). I think it's the cycle of civilization that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer until something breaks and you start all over again (not completely over, but there's a lot of turbulence). I believe this applies to any governmental system ever tried.


#164    F3SS

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:06 AM

View Postsam12six, on 17 December 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

I don't think there's ever going to be a way to eliminate poverty. Every society in history has had obscenely rich people and bitterly poor people (unless they enslaved the poor, then they were gainfully employed, I guess). I think it's the cycle of civilization that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer until something breaks and you start all over again (not completely over, but there's a lot of turbulence). I believe this applies to any governmental system ever tried.
I think you're right and that's why I'm tired of people who can't figure it out taking more money from our paychecks and telling me that's the solution as if they have figured it out.

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#165    sam12six

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:16 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 17 December 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I think you're right and that's why I'm tired of people who can't figure it out taking more money from our paychecks and telling me that's the solution as if they have figured it out.

Well, there's something to be said for trying to stave off that collapse for as long as possible. As for taking money from your paycheck, I totally agree. Anyone who actually receives a paycheck who's not an executive for a multibillion dollar corporation probably doesn't fall into the obscenely rich category (forgive me if I'm making incorrect assumptions about your financial status).

The desire to make those obscenely rich pay more is a good thing (reducing that inequality tiggs was talking about). The problem is that the way people keep discussing to do so is by raising income tax - something obscenely rich people don't really pay anyway. Now, taking a good look at capital gains and taxing the use of corporate assets as something other than personal income would go a very long way toward actually making things equitable without increasing taxes noticabely for those who don't make their luxurious living off those things.





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