97 replies to this topic

[TheMacGuffin]

bee, on 17 November 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

I wonder what those leaflets were about?

Those were the leaflets of the "Fair Play for Cuba Committee", of which Oswald had founded a branch in Miami and was the only member. He also tried to join a group of anti-Castro Cubans and then got into a scuffle with them when they say he was on the street passing out pro-Castro leaflets.

At least, that was they way it was made to appear, but Jim Garrison thought the whole thing was staged.  He did not believe that Oswald was a Communist but an agent of the US government, and the CIA admitted decades later that this was true.  At the time, of course, they denied any connection with Oswald, Gordon Novel or any of these other characters in New Orleans.

[bee]

TheMacGuffin, on 17 November 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Those were the leaflets of the "Fair Play for Cuba Committee", of which Oswald had founded a branch in Miami and was the only member. He also tried to join a group of anti-Castro Cubans and then got into a scuffle with them when they say he was on the street passing out pro-Castro leaflets.

Looks like Oswald was out of his depth and being played right left and centre...?

Quote

At least, that was they way it was made to appear, but Jim Garrison thought the whole thing was staged.  He did not believe that Oswald was a Communist but an agent of the US government, and the CIA admitted decades later that this was true.

crikey....if ever there was a fall guy...it surely must be Oswald.

He has his place in history...and in a funny kind of way...I think he generally has sympathy for being saddled with the JFK murder.

On-the-ground Intelligence work must be a dirty and dangerous business.

But don't want to go off topic with the Oswald thing....although that was interesting that Novel was there when he was handing

out the leaflets....


edit...just re-read the topic title and Oswald isn't off topic...


.

Edited by bee, 17 November 2012 - 06:48 PM.

[TheMacGuffin]

bee, on 17 November 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Looks like Oswald was out of his depth and being played right left and centre...?




crikey....if ever there was a fall guy...it surely must be Oswald.

He has his place in history...and in a funny kind of way...I think he generally has sympathy for being saddled with the JFK murder.

On-the-ground Intelligence work must be a dirty and dangerous business.

It's just one of the many things that make people wonder what in the world was really going on with the JFK assassination, especially with these strange intelligence and counter-intelligence types all over the place.  I mean, we now know that there were teams of shooters in Chicago, Tampa and Miami waiting to kill JFK when he visited those cities, but these plots were uncovered before he arrived and security precautions were increased.  

For some reason, though, no one seemed too interested in arresting or even questioning these people, including a Klansman like Joseph Milteer who the FBI had on tape saying that JFK was going to be shot from a tall building by people with rifles and that it was in the works.

I think it's very much the same thing with UFOs, for that matter, and often the same type of people involved.  Their job is to throw up all kinds of smokescreens and keep people confused about what the real story is.  In my opinion, that's far more effective that outright denial that anything is happening, which only works with the naive or badly uninformed who aren't paying much attention anyway.

[TheMacGuffin]

One of the problems with the JFK assassination is that he had TOO MANY enemies who wanted to kill him, and spoke openly of assassinating him: Jimmy Hoffa, the Klan, the Mafia, the anti-Castro Cubans, and they were all quite capable of extreme violence.  They all hated Robert Kennedy as well, perhaps even more than his brother.  Then there were J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ, who also had reasons to hate the Kennedy's and regard them as a threat to their interests.

They weren't even being secretive about all this and it was well known at the time, which is why they badly needed a patsy or fall guy who pointed in some direction away from them.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 17 November 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[bee]

TheMacGuffin, on 17 November 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

I think it's very much the same thing with UFOs, for that matter, and often the same type of people involved.  Their job is to throw up all kinds of smokescreens and keep people confused about what the real story is.  In my opinion, that's far more effective that outright denial that anything is happening, which only works with the naive or badly uninformed who aren't paying much attention anyway.

yes I agree...denial involves acknowledgement......smokescreens are more effective.

but I still like trying to figure out what the hell's going on with it all....smokescreens and all....

[TheMacGuffin]

I know what Gordon Novel said about this flying triangle photographed by STS 61, that it was one of ours--part of the secret space program.



The NASA explanation is that it was a piece of thermal insulation floating near the space shuttle, but then again they always say things like that, don't they?


http://www.google.co...29,r:6,s:0,i:92

[TheMacGuffin]

Here's another Gordon Novel connection--the little-known Defense Industrial Security Command (DISC).  

It was started in the 1930s as a security and intelligence agency to protect the Tennessee Valley Authority dams and power plants, and in the nature of these things just kept expanding from there.

"The Defense Industrial Security Command has always been kept secret because it acts, in addition to its two official control organizations, on behalf of NASA, the Atomic Energy Commission, the U.S. Information Agency,and the arms, equipment, ammunition, munitions and related miscellaneous supply manufacturing corporations contracting with NASA, the AEC, USIA, and the Pentagon."

http://www.google.co...X1DnKBVMwAsxUvQ

[psyche101]

hacktorp, on 15 November 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

This is one of the more fascinating threads we've seen here in a while.  All the more so given Novel's recent and sudden death just prior to release of the "POTUS BRIEFING" document.

Also notable is how our resident robo-debunkerbot crew have steered clear of this thread in droves.

Thanks MacGuffin!

LOL.

You miss what you lot call the skeptics that much that you need to see some in every thread? Most of the subjects have already been covered, reverse engineering, and what sort of a response for "The Quick Test For Disinformation" do you expect? Was that even serious? It seems rather childish to me.
I thought it would be nice to let McGuffin have a thread and discuss something without being challenged by half the posters, he's not a bad bloke, he just is passionate about different things to some of us. But if you really want the skeptics to have a look at this stuff, we can accomodate if you like. Will we start with reverse engineering, or the Solar Warden project? Seeming as you want to break up the serenity, I'll let you choose
I have dropped into this thread once or twice along the way, but was interested in hearing McGuffins side of things from start to finish. But if you insist, it does not have to be that way. Hey, why don't you challenge James Oberg personally, I am sure that will liven up the thread for you.

Edited by psyche101, 20 November 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 20 November 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

You miss what you lot call the skeptics that much that you need to see some in every thread?

No, I don't miss them and definitely made no request for their presence.

[psyche101]

TheMacGuffin, on 20 November 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

No, I don't miss them and definitely made no request for their presence.

I thought as much, and out of respect I felt there was no need for a skeptical view in every thread. I just figure if Hacktorp wants to bait people he might just get what he wishes for!

Other than that, Novell certainly had a strange life no matter ones perspective.

[TheMacGuffin]

I do think that Novel was involved in the JFK assassination and many other nefarious activities, and also seems to have a very interesting connection with John Alexander and Ron Pandolfi.  They do have a great deal of information about UFOs, although some would say disinformation.  Personally I think of them on the pro-disclosure side since they do indeed have "inside" information about UFOs and both agree that ETs are already here.

This CIA briefing for Obama, written by Pandolfi and others, also seems to be real.  Time will tell what becomes of it, but past efforts have not been particularly successful.    I thought that with Obama's reelection in the bag it might be a good time to make another attempt.

I think the term "reverse engineering" has been overused, but something like that has been going on since at least 1950, if Robert Sarbacher, Ben Rich and many others are to be believed--and I think they are.

The "secret space program" should more properly be called the military space program, which existed before NASA did.  No one seriously questions its existence if they know anything at all about this subject, no matter whether it's really called "Solar Warden" or not.

[psyche101]

Not just the project itself, but some of the things it has been said to have produced, like the Utah Desert plane. It's proposed dimensions are just plain to big to remain a secret. According to some reports there are fleets of Solar Warden vehicles in orbit, crashing on Mars, all sorts of wild tales that do not add up. But I find the JFK information quite an interesting read. Do you post n the CT section on JFK? I'd be interested to read your thoughts.
I have problems with reverse engineering, as there appears to be no benefit from it. Everything we have has a long history attached to it.
I hope you are right, it would be quite fascinating to see Obama make any sort of comment regarding Alien Life and his opinions regarding those with qualifications that make some of the comments we discuss here.

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 20 November 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Not just the project itself, but some of the things it has been said to have produced, like the Utah Desert plane. It's proposed dimensions are just plain to big to remain a secret. According to some reports there are fleets of Solar Warden vehicles in orbit, crashing on Mars, all sorts of wild tales that do not add up. But I find the JFK information quite an interesting read. Do you post n the CT section on JFK? I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

I did have a couple of threads in other sections about the JFK assassination, including one in the True Crime section.  I don't have THE answer to it, but I do know that there is so much wrong with the official version of Oswald acting alone that it's just impossible to list it all.

The more records that get declassified and the more we learn, the Warren Commission findings just don't hold up.

For example, we now know from declassified documents that Oswald had CIA training before he went to Russia, and that several members of the Warren Commission itself were very reluctant to sign the final version of the report despite considerable pressure from LBJ.  We have tapes of LBJ's old friend Sen. Richard Russell, arguing with him on the phone that the conclusions were wrong.

None of these things were known before, even though they were suspected, but of course it's fifty years after the fact and not a lot can be done about it.

[TheMacGuffin]

My unoriginal conclusion about Oswald is that someone framed him up to look like a Communist, pro-Castro type when probably the opposite was the case.  I think the purpose was to deflect the blame from those who really did it to make it appear that Castro and perhaps even the Soviets were responsible.  In other words, the motive was political, perhaps to set up the possibility of an invasion of Cuba to get rid of Castro once and for all.  

There were certainly other elements involved like the Mafia, and even a cursory investigation of Jack Ruby by any cop or FBI agent who was awake would have revealed his extensive mob ties going back to the days of Al Capone.  Their reasons for being hostile to John and Robert Kennedy were very well known at the time, so there was no shortage of people among the anti-Castro Cubans and the Mafia who were willing to take a shot at them.  

We now know that they even had Ruby's phone records from the months before the assassination and the FBI discovered that he was in frequent contact with a variety of Mafia types.  

All of that could have been known at the time--should have been known--except that it was equally clear that LBJ didn't want it to be known.  For him, the best answer was two lone crazy guys and no other complications.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 20 November 2012 - 07:52 AM.

[R4z3rsPar4d0x]

TheMacGuffin, on 20 November 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

My unoriginal conclusion about Oswald is that someone framed him up to look like a Communist, pro-Castro type when probably the opposite was the case.  I think the purpose was to deflect the blame from those who really did it to make it appear that Castro and perhaps even the Soviets were responsible.  In other words, the motive was political, perhaps to set up the possibility of an invasion of Cuba to get rid of Castro once and for all.  

There were certainly other elements involved like the Mafia, and even a cursory investigation of Jack Ruby by any cop or FBI agent who was awake would have revealed his extensive mob ties going back to the days of Al Capone.  Their reasons for being hostile to John and Robert Kennedy were very well known at the time, so there was no shortage of people among the anti-Castro Cubans and the Mafia who were willing to take a shot at them.  

We now know that they even had Ruby's phone records from the months before the assassination and the FBI discovered that he was in frequent contact with a variety of Mafia types.  

All of that could have been known at the time--should have been known--except that it was equally clear that LBJ didn't want it to be known.  For him, the best answer was two lone crazy guys and no other complications.

I didnt know that JFK had problems like that with the mob. WOW