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Overpopulation


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#91    Mr Walker

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:14 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 20 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

The problem is, that no matter how you redistribute the resources - we are living an unsustainable life which has an inevitable brick wall moment. We could all live a better life by redistribution to the developing world - but it would still destroy the eco-system we rely on for survival.

Br Cornelius
True. There are two problems. But if we fix the distribution and equity problem, the population one will take care of itself  even more quickly, as the fertility of people in developing countries will drop  even faster.

We could end up with a billion or so people living a sustainable but comfortable existence. The long term problem might be sustaining that population and not having it drop to below a viable level As long as women have less than two children on average each, the pop. will continue to decline; eventually, theoretically, to one person, then zero.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#92    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 20 November 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

I would choose to lead that short and brutal life which existed in the period before civilization. For me civilization has taken us away from our true nature as caring sharing creatures of manageble community size. Civilization has been a slow progression towards a smaller proportion of the society exploiting a larger portion of their fellow humans. It has been designed to serve the needs of a smaller and smaller elite.

I maybe a romantic, but I truely believe that there was a time likened to the Garden of Eden where life was a simple state of grace.

Br Cornelius

I think its ironic that you want to live in a pre-civilization world, where you would undoubtable believe that gods control the weather/seasons, and you would be killing large game animals slowly, with stone tipped spears, for food. All this from a athiestic, animal rights activist, bleeding heart liberal.

Feel free to correct any assumptions i have made.


#93    Br Cornelius

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:27 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 20 November 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

I think its ironic that you want to live in a pre-civilization world, where you would undoubtable believe that gods control the weather/seasons, and you would be killing large game animals slowly, with stone tipped spears, for food. All this from a athiestic, animal rights activist, bleeding heart liberal.

Feel free to correct any assumptions i have made.
Your assumptions are based on the false - premise that the Civilization we have at the moment is somehow inevitable and right.
My assumption is based on the acceptance that to live a "natural" life is intrinsically less cruel to the individual living it and the animals been exploited.

The massive mental health problems we face as a culture are stark testament to the disfunction of our current culture compared to the "natural" life of a tribal culture.

Do you think that the Pig or Cow living in a factory farm is "happier" because it dies quickly from a stun gun - or that animal which lives a free natural existance up until the last few minuites of its life, when it is dispatched by an arrow. Maybe you have never though about the intrinsic cruelty of our current animal husbandry and how it is an inevitable consequence of having to feed 7billion people - which is in turn the fruits of a "Civilized" culture.

Maybe you consider living a life which poisons our air water and soil to be better than one which leaves them unpolluted. Maybe you consider a life which is driving 50% of the animals and plants of the planet into exinction is somehow intrinsically superior to one which leaves them to live out their natural existance.

I have thought about these issues long and hard and live my life by the consequences of those thoughts. If thinking about the issues which effect your life and the lives of future generations makes you a "bleeding heart liberal" then I think we all need to be "bleeding hearts".

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 21 November 2012 - 10:47 AM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#94    Br Cornelius

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:35 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 20 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Ah well then i can understand your pov even if i disagree, and  I can appreciate that you are true to your core belief. I grew up with a grandnother born before anaesthetics, (at least in her home town) electricity, or any modern medicines like penicillin.  She made it clear to me that  times had improved considerably as technology progressed and i have seen the same thing occur over my lifetime. Humans still stuff things up, but life is better for most. Just imagine a tooth dieing and rotting out, without any anaesthetic or dentistry.  The nature of civilization also provides benefits to all members of it, even if we tend to take  them for granted.Eg it allows centralised education of all people.
I think that if you were to ask many of the Aboriginese whether they agreed that life in Australia had got better - they may very well disagree with your position. Similarly the large number of people working in sweat shops across the developing world may have a different persective about the overall benefits of the "Civilization" they currentl;y live under.

I would not be so ignorant to say that civilization has brought many benefits to many people, but the overall package has wrought a very heavy price in terms of lives lost and blighted in pursuit of the God progress. These matters are complex in that we can say without a shadow of a doubt that the half million people dead in Iraq are dead as a direct consequence of the American imperitive to sustain their progress of fossil fuel security, and the ability to kill so many civilians is a direct consequence of progress in technology.

I am not intrinsically an enemy of the concept of Civilzation - but I really feel that the system we currently have falls far to short of any reasonable definition of been "Civilized".

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#95    Mr Walker

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:00 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 21 November 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

I think that if you were to ask many of the Aboriginese whether they agreed that life in Australia had got better - they may very well disagree with your position. Similarly the large number of people working in sweat shops across the developing world may have a different persective about the overall benefits of the "Civilization" they currentl;y live under.

I would not be so ignorant to say that civilization has brought many benefits to many people, but the overall package has wrought a very heavy price in terms of lives lost and blighted in pursuit of the God progress. These matters are complex in that we can say without a shadow of a doubt that the half million people dead in Iraq are dead as a direct consequence of the American imperitive to sustain their progress of fossil fuel security, and the ability to kill so many civilians is a direct consequence of progress in technology.

I am not intrinsically an enemy of the concept of Civilzation - but I really feel that the system we currently have falls far to short of any reasonable definition of been "Civilized".

Br Cornelius
Im not going to speak for aboriginal people. i will let the aboriginal doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians, poets etc., do that.

I dont get the 'god progress'  comment.  Civilization and god have nothing to do with each other. Humans have had a spiritual element and worshipped gods since neandertal and cromagnon times . I also dont accept that the middle east wars had so much to do with oil. i think they are like many of the wars america finds itself in; a genuine reaction to the tyranny and autocracy of some regimes which oppress their peoples. Saddam hussein after all used nerve gas on his own peoples The taliban destroys historic monumnents and oppresses women, and anyone who doesnt follow their strict and particular religious code.

To most americans that is an anathema, and creates acceptance in a democracy for wars seen as wars of liberation.

Ps i just worked it out. You see the importance of a comma.  "In pursuit of the god, progress." :innocent:  Progress becomes a noun rather than, as i read it, a verb. "the god progress"

Edited by Mr Walker, 23 November 2012 - 09:05 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#96    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:17 AM

The "God Progress" is reference to exalting the idea that progress as a universally positive and desirable quality. To elevate the idea of progress to a similar status to the idea of God. In a secular age the concept of technology and progress have largely surplanted the religious "God" as a motivational principle.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#97    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:09 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 20 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Ah well then i can understand your pov even if i disagree, and  I can appreciate that you are true to your core belief. I grew up with a grandnother born before anaesthetics, (at least in her home town) electricity, or any modern medicines like penicillin.  She made it clear to me that  times had improved considerably as technology progressed and i have seen the same thing occur over my lifetime. Humans still stuff things up, but life is better for most. Just imagine a tooth dieing and rotting out, without any anaesthetic or dentistry.  The nature of civilization also provides benefits to all members of it, even if we tend to take  them for granted.Eg it allows centralised education of all people.
There was not much tooth decay before agriculture ;)

Edited by Seeker79, 23 November 2012 - 03:10 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#98    Mr Walker

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:05 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 November 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

There was not much tooth decay before agriculture ;)
I am not sure about the truth of this. It sounds intuitively correct  but many primitive people show a lot of teeth loss. The cause for this, of course, may not be tooth decay.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#99    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 24 November 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

I am not sure about the truth of this. It sounds intuitively correct  but many primitive people show a lot of teeth loss. The cause for this, of course, may not be tooth decay.
Tooth decay and damage seem to be a peculiarly civilized condition. It was associated with the move away from teeth strengthening meat and bone consumption towards soft grains. Unfortunately until modern times those self same grains led to sever tooth damage as they always had a high fraction of grit which wore away tooth enamel and chipped teeth.

For a potted history look at Wiki;

Quote

Archaeological evidence shows that tooth decay is an ancient disease dating far into prehistory. Skulls dating from a million years ago through the neolithic period show signs of caries, excepting those from the Paleolithic and Mesolithic ages.[86] The increase of caries during the neolithic period may be attributed to the increased consumption of plant foods containing carbohydrates.[88] The beginning of rice cultivation in South Asia is also believed to have caused an increase in caries.
A Sumerian text from 5000 BC describes a "tooth worm" as the cause of caries.[89] Evidence of this belief has also been found in India, Egypt, Japan, and China.[87] Unearthed ancient skulls show evidence of primitive dental work. In Pakistan, teeth dating from around 5500 BC to 7000 BC show nearly perfect holes from primitive dental drills.[90] The Ebers Papyrus, an Egyptian text from 1550 BC, mentions diseases of teeth.[89] During the Sargonid dynasty of Assyria during 668 to 626 BC, writings from the king's physician specify the need to extract a tooth due to spreading inflammation.[87] In the Roman Empire, wider consumption of cooked foods led to a small increase in caries prevalence.[84] The Greco-Roman civilization, in addition to the Egyptian, had treatments for pain resulting from caries.[87]
The rate of caries remained low through the Bronze Age and Iron Age, but sharply increased during the Middle Ages.[86] Periodic increases in caries prevalence had been small in comparison to the 1000 AD increase, when sugar cane became more accessible to the Western world. Treatment consisted mainly of herbal remedies and charms, but sometimes also included bloodletting.[91] The barber surgeons of the time provided services that included tooth extractions.[87] Learning their training from apprenticeships, these health providers were quite successful in ending tooth pain and likely prevented systemic spread of infections in many cases. Among Roman Catholics, prayers to Saint Apollonia, the patroness of dentistry, were meant to heal pain derived from tooth infection.[92]




I think you will find that primitive hunter gathers would show consistently better teeth than urban populations.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 24 November 2012 - 03:56 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#100    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:44 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 November 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:


I think you will find that primitive hunter gathers would show consistently better teeth than urban populations.

Br Cornelius
Eskimos in isolated reigons have almost zero tooth decay without dental hygiene. But it was also found that soil in hunter gather diets did indeed grind their teeth down. This did not increase incidence of decay it actually worked against it. The effect was like smoothing the teeth and eliminating places for bacteria to lodge.

Edited by Seeker79, 24 November 2012 - 05:48 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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