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Wealth redistribution = Investment?


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#16    Jeremiah65

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

We human beings are profoundly odd creatures.  We are by our very nature, social animals.  When we were naked and running across the plains, we still sought to group together...not only for protection but for socialization.  We also have the capacity to be harsh, cruel and selfish.  We are such an odd mixture that if you boil us all down to our fundamental ingredients...we are all walking paradoxes.

Most humans do not like to see another human in pain or suffering.  We are empathetic that way.  But many times the recipients of our concern are on the flip side of that paradox...sometimes people are psychopaths and sociopaths and just do not care and will prey on the "good will" of others.

Social Security was almost a great idea.  However, when it was created, the average lifespan was different.  If I am not mistaken (and I might be) the amount of time someone was projected to collect was about 8 to 10 years.  There was a lot of empathy and sympathy rolled into that package.  Back in the day, most husbands worked and the wives took care of the children and the home.  If a husband were to die, his social security went to the wife...a very compassionate thing to do and I don't begrudge softening someone's loss.  The problem though, is if the husband died in his say...late 40's or early 50's, the wife would draw his social security far longer than the projected 8-10 years the system was modeled on.  A great and wonderful thing that we did to help people.  But something has happened to "us"...as individuals...

The problems though are obvious.  There is no "magic spell" to fix this system.  I would never suggest that we completely lose our humanity and allow other humans to suffer.  I might be a freedom and liberty loving Libertarian who wants the ability to live life to it's fullest...but I am not a heartless and callous prick.  I want many things changed so that people are free to do their best, but I do not agree with throwing the weak and infirm under the bus so I can personally have a bigger house or an extra car...yeah....I am a paradox too.  I believe in a lot of odd things I guess, maybe it's from years of reading philosophy and multiple religions.  I DO believe that the selfish and aggressive parts of our nature will be our undoing.  The transformation from a civilized, humane society to a society of the "self" is what it is and I have learned to accept that we will probably not evolve in the right direction anymore.

That's fine.  Species have come and gone for millions of years.  We probably won't last an incredibly long time here.  There are very few species that prey on their own kind and most that do...do so for survival...we do it for selfishness and greed...has nothing to do with just food, shelter and clothing...the necessities of life.

The "7 deadly sins" are called "deadly" for a reason.  Greed, gluttony, envy, lust, wrath (anger), vain pride and sloth.  They dwell within all of us and we as a society and individuals either try to overcome them...or we choose to embrace them....it's pretty much that simple.

Good day.

Edited by Jeremiah65, 15 November 2012 - 02:07 PM.

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#17    Mantis914

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

View Postninjadude, on 13 November 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

and? Times change.



of course there is, a valuable member of society.



we would call them and you - naive. In fact, many are now able to stay on their parents plan for a time.



functioning members of society.



the money is invested.



No it's based on your highest 35 years. And you have to work for 10


Is this what you call a valuable member of society?   Someone living off the backs of others?  No, no, no, the valuable member of society is the person out there working and being productive...  if the recipient is truly disabled, then that's a different matter however, that should be thoroughly verified before giving dollar one to the recipient.  Just like everything else, there's got to be a handful of lazy frauds that spoil it for those that are really in need.


#18    Mantis914

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 13 November 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

You know every "investment' I've made towards another individual has done nothing but benefit the individual and teach me that being generous doesn't pay yet I never learn because I'm nice. Being nice rarely pays off. The op topic sounds nice to some but heed my words, being nice doesn't pay off. Examples...

A guy that was working for a few years ago got a speeding ticket, asked me to loan him money. I did. He quit soon after. I never seen the money again. He hasn't worked much since but is a Call of Duty phenom.
Purpose of investment: Making sure my guy didn't lose his license so he could continue to drive to work plus I'm a sucker for helping out.
Personal gain: -$120
Societal gain: Nothing.

Another guy who worked for me a few years ago; I went on vacation for a week and let him use my truck as he only had a car and figured my truck would be needed while I was away and was to be used only for work. On the way home from the airport, at night, he called to tell me the truck had a flat tire. He was in a neighborhood he shouldn't have been in. I met up and sure enough I had a flat. Also there was a lawnmower in my truck. Turns out he was doing side work at the expense of my truck and against the rules I had stated. We don't do landscaping. The spare tire underneath was rusted on so tight I couldn't get the nuts and bolts loose. Had to get it towed home. Had to get 2 new tires as is usually the case when they're mid-life and one needs replaced.
Purpose of investment: Keeping my much needed truck on the job and making his life easier for a week by doing so. Saved him mileage and gas money on his own vehicle.
Personal gain: Negative several hundred dollars plus the aggravation of sudden shop time and loss of time for business.
Societal gain: Zilch. I continued to let him work with us until it turned out he was stealing from customers and my company. He even left other employees in the negative do to unpaid monies borrowed. He's now a drug addict who's burned all known bridges.

I've got plenty more similar stories I'd like to tell but just realized how long of a post that may become. Point is that these were people I knew who screwed me over and both instances were a type of investment in which I can blame no one but myself . What's to make me think that one, the government can handle my money properly and two, complete strangers getting something for nothing are going to be a benefit to anyone let alone society and three, redistributing my money by force is going to be the least bit reassuring?
In both stories above I'd have been better off not loaning my truck out and telling the other guy sorry but I can't help. I should've minded my own business and left well enough alone. That's all I ask of the government. Do your job responsibly according to the constitution and leave well enough alone. Organizational charities are the best place to 'invest' your money if you really want to help people. They offer a specific service and leave no one under the impression they are entitled to something.

The thing about people that galls me the most is when they find themselves in a jam and then suddenly turn to me and say, "What should I do?"  I've had that happen on several occasions and I just think to myself, "Why are you asking me to solve your problems?"  People that push their problems onto to other people to get them solved are about as low as they come...


#19    F3SS

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

View PostMantis914, on 15 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:



The thing about people that galls me the most is when they find themselves in a jam and then suddenly turn to me and say, "What should I do?"  I've had that happen on several occasions and I just think to myself, "Why are you asking me to solve your problems?"  People that push their problems onto to other people to get them solved are about as low as they come...
Mostly I'd say at first that they're helpless rather than low. But when my generosity isn't recognized with one on one situations like I mentioned above that's when I exchange the word helpless with low. Hell, if they even brought it up without me eluding to it and said they haven't forgotten I'd be more forgiving. It's cost me quite a few bucks to learn who will sell their friendships for money. In every single instance in which I have ever loaned money to someone it's been a complete struggle to get it back if ever at all. I guess the reason is that the real stand-up people in my life never ask for anything. They're like me. They have their shlt together. Nice as I usually am I never really had any problems just cutting someone out of my life. It's easy.

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#20    ninjadude

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:22 AM

View PostMantis914, on 15 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Is this what you call a valuable member of society?   Someone living off the backs of others?  No, no, no, the valuable member of society is the person out there working and being productive...  if the recipient is truly disabled, then that's a different matter however, that should be thoroughly verified before giving dollar one to the recipient.  Just like everything else, there's got to be a handful of lazy frauds that spoil it for those that are really in need.

so if they don't have a job we should just let them die? that's what you're proposing in black and white. Have you ever been to a welfare office? Seen the requirements? Seen the reasons why people get welfare?

I thought not.

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#21    ninjadude

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:23 AM

View PostMantis914, on 15 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

The thing about people that galls me the most is when they find themselves in a jam and then suddenly turn to me and say, "What should I do?"

It may "gall" you, but in society A LOT of people just want to be told what to do. It has nothing to do with economics.

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
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#22    F3SS

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:03 AM

View Postninjadude, on 16 November 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:



but in society A LOT of people just want to be told what to do. It has nothing to do with economics.
Hello!!!??? You just summed up nearly everything wrong with today's America in two sentences.

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#23    Mantis914

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:08 AM

View Postninjadude, on 16 November 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

so if they don't have a job we should just let them die? that's what you're proposing in black and white. Have you ever been to a welfare office? Seen the requirements? Seen the reasons why people get welfare?

I thought not.

You thought right, because I've worked ever since I've been on my own which was about age 17 but I'll tell you what, I used to be a program coordinator for TEFAP (Texas Emergency Food Assistance Program) which is the program that gives out USDA food (government cheese) and I know all about guidelines and all the ways to circumvent these rules and policies too because they've all tried them on me.
The only part I really enjoyed about this job was when I used to drive a van and hand deliver food for the elderly which I did with a smile on my face because these were truly people that relied on this to make it during the week, month, etc...  the only thing I hated about this job was being told that there was no need to deliver food to a person any more because they passed away.  After a while, they became like family and always happy to see me.

Seen the reasons why people get welfare?   Yeah, some may be legitimate but I know there's a big portion that are collecting just so as not to have to work or are working but being paid under the table.  For a mild example, I just heard a girl talking on the phone near my work and to give you a wake up call, I'll share that with you, it went something like this:
"Yeah, you going shopping tonight?"  "How many?"  "Damn, you're greedy, girl!"  "Well, you let me have that card next since you still have so much left..."
I've been in supermarkets and seen people pass their EBT card around like a ball to a group of people all of whom looked very capable of putting in a hard days work.

When did I say let them die?  People who are able to work, walk and function should be able to work.  You want to villify and distort my words, go right ahead.  What I wrote was in black and white and I'm sure any one with common sense won't have any trouble with an interpretation.

I have a friend with severe gout who went back to work as he had been collecting disability and regardless of intense joint pain, it was by his choice, he said something that most people on assistance probably will never realize, he said, "You know, man, it feels good to have your own money that you earned and worked for..."  There should be an incentive plan for people who get off the assistance programs and become a productive member of society.

Edited by Mantis914, 16 November 2012 - 05:09 AM.


#24    Mantis914

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:14 AM

View Postninjadude, on 16 November 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

It may "gall" you, but in society A LOT of people just want to be told what to do. It has nothing to do with economics.

You just summed up a dictatorship.  People are free to make their own choices (right or wrong) not leave the responsibility of making a difficult decision to someone else...


#25    Jinxdom

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:06 AM

Current system doesn't work at all. Welfare/Tanf is prone to abuse, any government program that allows you have more kids to get more money is retarded. The system has like a ratio of 90/10 scumbag to decent human being(Who would work to become self-sufficient) ratio. When I was a kid the system pretty much said hey have more kids to get more money(not sure about it now) which is just a great message. The people who need the help can't get it and the people who abuse it do. I've even seen parents put credit cards and bills in there kids name. It's a crappy system that doesn't work and only screws future generations. It needs to be reworked.





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