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Forced religion

forced religion

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#106    Etu Malku

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:52 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 24 November 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

Mr Walker,
you say "I now have more of a duty  responsibilrty to care for all others because of our connection to god." does this mean that if you had no connection to god, you would not feel the same duty and responsibility to care for others?
If that is the case, then i will go back to my original part of my post where I say that parents should  teach their child the ways of life based on the natural world around them and how best to use its resources and live in it. Each child should be taught how to respect their surroundings and their fellow man. If the parent wishes to tell their child about a religion, then fine, but that should not come before the teaching of our natural world and should not be used as a substitute to replace our natural instincts.
From what I have read about wars throughout history, the connection between god and caring has not worked. Many wars have been over religion.
For some people, such as Mr. Walker, it appears religion is a crutch. I cannot think of any moral or ethic that needs religion to be put into practice. Whereas, religion is useful in creating comfort and community, this too is a psychological crutch and unnecessary to the modern Man.

I never imposed any religious doctrine or philosophy on my children, when they became older, they became interested and could research their own ideals and such, choosing their own paths free of guilt and fear.

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#107    freetoroam

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:07 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 24 November 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

For some people, such as Mr. Walker, it appears religion is a crutch. I cannot think of any moral or ethic that needs religion to be put into practice. Whereas, religion is useful in creating comfort and community, this too is a psychological crutch and unnecessary to the modern Man.

I never imposed any religious doctrine or philosophy on my children, when they became older, they became interested and could research their own ideals and such, choosing their own paths free of guilt and fear.
Modern man has other things to deal with without having religion confuse his mind any more,
The family network is not what it used to be, our whole way of life has changed, much of it down to technology. We work longer hours and stress is a major part of many peoples daily life. Religion did not help us to avoid any of these and played no part in the creation of the internet world, so I can not see what it will do today to help deal with these new lifestyles, Lifestyles which have no comparison with the lifestyles depicted in the bible novel.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#108    Etu Malku

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:22 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 24 November 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Modern man has other things to deal with without having religion confuse his mind any more,
The family network is not what it used to be, our whole way of life has changed, much of it down to technology. We work longer hours and stress is a major part of many peoples daily life. Religion did not help us to avoid any of these and played no part in the creation of the internet world, so I can not see what it will do today to help deal with these new lifestyles, Lifestyles which have no comparison with the lifestyles depicted in the bible novel.
I'm in agreement with you . . . but, I must say . . . thank GOD we're still not avoiding saber-toothed tigers and maniacal birds!Now THAT was stress every night!

Edited by Etu Malku, 24 November 2012 - 11:23 PM.

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#109    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:00 AM

View Postfreetoroam, on 24 November 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

Mr Walker,
you say "I now have more of a duty  responsibilrty to care for all others because of our connection to god." does this mean that if you had no connection to god, you would not feel the same duty and responsibility to care for others?
If that is the case, then i will go back to my original part of my post where I say that parents should  teach their child the ways of life based on the natural world around them and how best to use its resources and live in it. Each child should be taught how to respect their surroundings and their fellow man. If the parent wishes to tell their child about a religion, then fine, but that should not come before the teaching of our natural world and should not be used as a substitute to replace our natural instincts.
From what I have read about wars throughout history, the connection between god and caring has not worked. Many wars have been over religion.
As a child and an atheist secular humanist i was taught phiolosophicala and sociital based ethical standards and value lines. I learned to be law abiding because i understood the logicala and ethiclalprinciples on whci the laws were based and on how they benefited society trading off individual liberties for social good.

BUt as a person in communion with god i understand that evey other human IS myself. We are all a part of a universal consciousness and entity some call god. And so I have a very basic duty and repsonsibilty to care for everyone else i can as well as i care for myself.

Loving myslef i must love all other entitities equally because we are one i must act to all others as I act towards my self. And so, i can be no greater and no lesser than any other.   My talents and abilities successes and rewards are not jus tmine but gods and the society's/environmnet which supports me.
It is a sort of buddhist /gaean philosophy but also fits precisely into the teachings of christ and matches the nature of the god i know and love personally.

Drivers which combine emotional, intellectual, philosophical and logical rationales into an internalised belief system are the strongest and most motivating, and hence the most successful and enduring.

Ps our natural instincts are those of any other primate. To me, as a self aware being, they are neither good enough nor do they produce the best outcomes. Learned  responses, based on knowledge and understanding are far superior than our natural animal instincts.

Edited by Mr Walker, 25 November 2012 - 01:03 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#110    Etu Malku

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:31 AM

Honestly, I find you to be one of the few god-embracing people who make sense, explains his side very articulately, and can comprehend where someone like myself is coming from (to a degree of curse).
I may not agree with everything in your path (and you with mine) but I do consider many of the philosophical aspects that you put foreword concerning your path.
:wub:

View PostMr Walker, on 25 November 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

As a child and an atheist secular humanist i was taught phiolosophicala and sociital based ethical standards and value lines. I learned to be law abiding because i understood the logicala and ethiclalprinciples on whci the laws were based and on how they benefited society trading off individual liberties for social good.

BUt as a person in communion with god i understand that evey other human IS myself. We are all a part of a universal consciousness and entity some call god. And so I have a very basic duty and repsonsibilty to care for everyone else i can as well as i care for myself.

Loving myslef i must love all other entitities equally because we are one i must act to all others as I act towards my self. And so, i can be no greater and no lesser than any other.   My talents and abilities successes and rewards are not jus tmine but gods and the society's/environmnet which supports me.
It is a sort of buddhist /gaean philosophy but also fits precisely into the teachings of christ and matches the nature of the god i know and love personally.

Drivers which combine emotional, intellectual, philosophical and logical rationales into an internalised belief system are the strongest and most motivating, and hence the most successful and enduring.

Ps our natural instincts are those of any other primate. To me, as a self aware being, they are neither good enough nor do they produce the best outcomes. Learned  responses, based on knowledge and understanding are far superior than our natural animal instincts.


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#111    freetoroam

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

Mr Walker,
"As a child and an atheist secular humanist i was taught phiolosophicala and sociital based ethical standards and value lines"

=======================
Wow, you were an atheist secular humanist as a child?  Your parents told you that?! My parents told me to wash my hands after going to the loo!
As a child i played with dolls and liked drawing pictures with crayons, my parents taught me not to swear and not to talk to strangers. As for phiolosophicala and sociital based things, I am not sure, but I was taught how to bake fairy cakes.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#112    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:02 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 25 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Mr Walker,
"As a child and an atheist secular humanist i was taught phiolosophicala and sociital based ethical standards and value lines"

=======================
Wow, you were an atheist secular humanist as a child?  Your parents told you that?! My parents told me to wash my hands after going to the loo!
As a child i played with dolls and liked drawing pictures with crayons, my parents taught me not to swear and not to talk to strangers. As for phiolosophicala and sociital based things, I am not sure, but I was taught how to bake fairy cakes.

Sometimes people think atheist  =  someone who just didn't attend a church and bother with religion.. That itself is not exactly atheism ..

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#113    freetoroam

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:11 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 25 November 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Sometimes people think atheist  =  someone who just didn't attend a church and bother with religion.. That itself is not exactly atheism ..
Its had a few meanings over the years. It is said that the Romans would have seen jesus as an atheist as he did not believe in their gods. Some say an atheiist is someone who does not believe in "your" god, but they do believe in theirs. some people are more ignostic or agnostic but are only aware of the word atheist.
Some religious people call anyone who is not religious atheist, i would rather they do not call me that, I am just another human being making my way through life who has been fortunate enough not to have been indoctrinated into a cult.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#114    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:59 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 25 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Its had a few meanings over the years. It is said that the Romans would have seen jesus as an atheist as he did not believe in their gods. Some say an atheiist is someone who does not believe in "your" god, but they do believe in theirs. some people are more ignostic or agnostic but are only aware of the word atheist.
Some religious people call anyone who is not religious atheist, i would rather they do not call me that, I am just another human being making my way through life who has been fortunate enough not to have been indoctrinated into a cult.

When asked about my beliefs.. I note that I am a believer in god, just not the same as Christians and other faiths ... I like to keep my faith to myself..it's safer !!

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#115    ZaraKitty

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:30 AM

Everybody is born an atheist. It is the parents that force god down their throats and indoctrinate them.

The internet is a series of tubes, and those tubes are full of cats.

#116    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:48 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 24 November 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

For some people, such as Mr. Walker, it appears religion is a crutch. I cannot think of any moral or ethic that needs religion to be put into practice. Whereas, religion is useful in creating comfort and community, this too is a psychological crutch and unnecessary to the modern Man.

I never imposed any religious doctrine or philosophy on my children, when they became older, they became interested and could research their own ideals and such, choosing their own paths free of guilt and fear.

Religion (or more accurately spirituality) isn't a crutch, its a bionic enhancement. And anyone who rejects its benefits will always be more limited than if they accpeted its benefits Not compared to someone else but to how they could be as an individual. One would be neglectful of their children not to give them such a powerful tool, which can add ten years to a life; relieve it of fear, depression, guilt and anger, and make one healthier physically and psychologically. Humans are naturally spiritual due to the nature of our evolved self awareness and sapience, which is probably why, even in this modern age, 95% of humans profess a belief in a spiritual element to humanity.

Are you saying comfort and community is no longer necessary for modern man? The breakdown in community, from family to neighbourhood, is recognised as one of the greatest dangers to human mental health especially in young people.

Ps I missed your nice comments above. I am a very rational man, but as you point out, people with different life experinces may have very different ideas values and  ways of living. I try to respect all human beliefs including atheism because ther eare many paths to fulfil human potential, but i base my way of life on evidences about how is best for people to live.

Thus i do not smoke, drink, take drugs, eat much meat, and dont consume resources unnecessarily (i never fly by plane) I have a close link with my community and  a sense of purpose. I maintain close links with my family and use learned skills and the power of god to reject anger, hate, envy, spite, fear, and all other negative emotions. This all gives me an exceptionally good quality of life.

Edited by Mr Walker, 26 November 2012 - 08:11 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#117    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:58 AM

View Postfreetoroam, on 25 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Mr Walker,
"As a child and an atheist secular humanist i was taught phiolosophicala and sociital based ethical standards and value lines"

=======================
Wow, you were an atheist secular humanist as a child?  Your parents told you that?! My parents told me to wash my hands after going to the loo!
As a child i played with dolls and liked drawing pictures with crayons, my parents taught me not to swear and not to talk to strangers. As for phiolosophicala and sociital based things, I am not sure, but I was taught how to bake fairy cakes.

I started reading at the age of two and had read almost every book in the local public library, including the encyclopedia britannica, before i was old enough to legally borrow a book from the adult section.. I developed the philosophy of secular humanism for myself, using the demonstrated morals and ethics of my parents, community and all the books I read. It was only when reading about it, that i worked out what it was called.

My parents taught me from birth how to establish value lines and how to base and model ethics and philosophical behaviour upon those values. I was also taught to cook,  iron, do the washing, and sew, paint and knit, by my mother/grandmother, and to  design, make and create things by my father.

The only thing i was really hopeless at was music. and i never learned to play an instrument. In a family where all read, and talk about life, a child picks up things from birth.  I still read at least one full book a day sometimes two, 10 newspapers and half a dozen magazines a week, plus thousands of words from students as well as many more on the internet..

Ps like most australiann children in the mid 1900s. I was taught to be quiet, listen attentively, speak when spoken to, be self disciplined,  and yes wash my hands and open doors for women. To respect women and my elders particularly never to swear, lie, steal, hurt another,  etc.  To work hard and understand the rewards of hard work and discipline. I worked  12 hour days during the school week, plus one day on the weekend, and a 40 hour a week job during all school holidays, to make money to send myself to uni. That is just how life was, then. I am not bragging, my mates were all the same.

Edited by Mr Walker, 26 November 2012 - 08:03 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#118    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:08 AM

Ps Etu, I missed your nice comments above. I am a very rational man, but as you point out, people with different life experiences may have very different ideas values and  ways of living. I try to respect all human beliefs, including atheism, because there are many paths to fulfil human potential, but i base my way of life on evidences about how is best for people to live.

Thus i do not smoke, drink, take drugs, eat much meat, and don't consume resources unnecessarily (i never fly by plane) I have a close link with my community and  a sense of purpose. I maintain close links with my family and use learned skills and the power of god to reject anger, hate, envy, spite, fear, and all other negative emotions. This all gives me an exceptionally good quality of life.


Edited by Mr Walker, 26 November 2012 - 09:10 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#119    freetoroam

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:25 PM

Mr Walker sir,
you say " And anyone who rejects its benefits will always be more limited than if they accpeted its benefits", in your opinion! you can not say this unless you know about the life of a non believer. I do not believe in god and do not find myself limited at all, in fact, the complete opposite.
As a non believer i am not committed to a cult, which gives me more time to commit to what is important to me, my family, life and nature.
I can not claim to have read books at the age of 2, I may have chewed more than you read though, but it did not stopping me from enjoying my life. Children should be children and I can not see the point in reading all the books in the library while you are a child, whats the point? The only books in the library I have read are books that interest me, other books which were of interest I bought. :sk

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#120    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 26 November 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Mr Walker sir,
you say " And anyone who rejects its benefits will always be more limited than if they accpeted its benefits", in your opinion! you can not say this unless you know about the life of a non believer. I do not believe in god and do not find myself limited at all, in fact, the complete opposite.
As a non believer i am not committed to a cult, which gives me more time to commit to what is important to me, my family, life and nature.
I can not claim to have read books at the age of 2, I may have chewed more than you read though, but it did not stopping me from enjoying my life. Children should be children and I can not see the point in reading all the books in the library while you are a child, whats the point? The only books in the library I have read are books that interest me, other books which were of interest I bought. :sk

I began to read at 23 months old..   By the time I was 2 and a half, I could spell and write..   When I reached 4, I made it into Mensa.  I was driving a moped scooter at the age of 5 down the freeway .......   I was running the family business at the age of 6 .. I was visited by what I thought were angels, and they told me I was going to be gods vessel on earth when I was 9 going on 10   I can not only read books, but god gave me the gift to read minds too ..I was hooked up to a computer and it couldn't keep up with me, so it blew up..
God made it possible for me to fly into space without the help of NASA....I was working for the CIA at 12...I have inspired many great minds, they just can't get enough of my talents, because I have so many .. I invented all the flashy gadgets  you see on Star Trek when I was 7.... I am still gods vessel, I just wait until he is ready for me  lol   ....  Oh my, that was fun to post :P

My daughter was going on 4 years old when she began to read.. She loves to read all sorts of books.. She loves going to the book fair and is a member of a book club..  Her room is full of books   ( childrens books )  She has more books than I can shake a stick at..  Her book case in her bedroom is packed with them, and we have to find her another bookcase for the rest that are all over the place.. Beckys books range from  -  Dairy of a wimpy kid  to kids astronomy   She loves every bit of it, but she enjoys playing and going to her friends house..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 27 November 2012 - 12:40 AM.

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