158 replies to this topic

[Orcseeker]

pallidin, on 17 November 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

Yeah, they just indoctrinate their children and give them guns and RPG's.
And perhaps an occassional suicide vest.

An I've seen videos of Christian American children shooting high powered rifles at shooting ranges.

I think you're making huge generalisations at this point.

[pallidin]

Orcseeker, on 17 November 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

An I've seen videos of Christian American children shooting high powered rifles at shooting ranges.

I think you're making huge generalisations at this point.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and your opinion is appreciated.

[Mr Walker]

TheBanana, on 17 November 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

id say the line is actual real life consequences for not behaving in the way the parents taught.

teenagers should listen to what their parents say about things like not hurting other people, not taking drugs, not stealing...because they have real world consequences (like that hitting people hurts them, drugs are bad for your health...) and dont want their child to end up in jail.

what harm is a kid doing by not wanting to go to church or deciding to follow a different religion to their parents? its not like other religions and atheists are evil with no morals. morality isnt a religious thing, even atheists who were raised by atheist parents have a clear set of morals and most of them wouldnt do things like go around beating people up and sleeping with anything that moves.

the kid you described, who was kicked out of her house was because she was dangerous-harming others and destroying the house and making her siblings violent. being a different religion from your family doesnt have any effects like that-it doesnt hurt others, it doesnt destroy the house, and it wont affect her siblings negatively. it may give them another viewpoint and some may decide to explore other religious options too, but this is a good thing (seriously, any parent who shelters their children from other religious views of their own must be very insecure of their beliefs). the parents reaction to the atheist kid also influences the other kids-if they accept their kids regardless of religion it teaches them a valuble lesson in respecting other peoples beliefs, but if they go crazy and kick out the atheist kid, it will just teach the children that its ok to hate people of different religions, and also teach them that children are only important when they are mini clones of their parents, and if they have any different opinion they could be gone and forgotten.

most kids go through a rebellious stage or threaten to run away from home over little rules, its natural, they dont understand why their parents dont let them stay up late, make them eat vegetables and clean their room, but sometimes its ok to let your kid have a bit of individuality. some things are completely fine (like the kid making their own religious choices) and are just them trying to find their own identity seperate from their parents, and wont really affect the family, unless the parents actually ARE controlling.

i see it differently. i dont have kids yet, but i think i would like to one day, but i would feel like i failed as a parent if all of my children followed my political and religious beliefs and shared all my opinions on things (depending on how many i choose to have, if i had loads i would naturally expect some differences), because that would mean i havent taught my kids to think, ive taught them to parrot back my beliefs.

Do yo see yoursef as a failure? If not, how can your kids be failures in following your own morals ethics and behaviour? Ethics morality and behaviour are underscored by beliefs.

Call those beliefs religious or not, there is no way to separate them from our general beliefs. A religious persons' beliefs are underlined by religious based values. An atheist  can have the same beliefs and values without a religious component, but must have some "faith based" reason to hold them eg they BELIEVE it is wrong to steal or hurt another person, because they believe.........

If religious belief is a core and integral part of a parents human beliefs then they will not accept that a child can /will be the same as them, without believing as they do. If they have been fulfilled made happy kept safe etc by their belief, then they will believe their children can gain the same advantages via belief

No parent wants less than the best for their child and will naturally work to deliver positive outcomes for them.

The human brain does not mature in women until the early 20s, and in men until the late twenties. Adolescents  cannpt do the same forms of risk assessments as parents, because that part of their brain is among the last to develop. Brain development in people unde 20 is highly at risk from drugs and alcohol even in small amounts. Children simply do not posses the capacity to think in the way adults can, and so adults must make decisions for them.

Long before this was worked out scientifically, humans realised this and  society evolved into authority based on parental control. Modern society is no different  and modern children are biologically no different  apart from a considerably earlier onset of puberty.They still require parental guidance and control, perhaps more so in a society which is breaking down and presents more dangers to young people than ever before.

And p.s. no, it is not good enough for people to not do things for fear of consequence, or else they will do them if they think they can escape consequence. Tey must learn not to do things because they are ethically/morally wrong to do,  and WHY that is so. Then they will act correctly, even when no one is watching, and when they will not be caught.

Edited by Mr Walker, 17 November 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[Mr Walker]

HavocWing, on 17 November 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

So much for spare the rod and spoil the child, right...

Right.

[HavocWing]

pallidin, on 17 November 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

Yeah, they just indoctrinate their children and give them guns and RPG's.
And perhaps an occassional suicide vest.

They just abuse them so badly it makes them maniacs:

http://shine.yahoo.c...-175900678.html

[and then]

Darkwind, on 16 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

You opened yourself wide open with that statement. The Muslims are just the latest in a long line of atrocities inflicted by the followers of the god of Abraham. The only reason for the Palestinian, Israeli conflict is based on the Zionist idea the Jews have a right to the land because the Torah/Bible says they do.  There are fundamentalist Christians who burn their own children because they think they are witches in Africa.  Just rampant nuttiness.

They claim Abraham as their father but their god is NOT the God of the Bible.  A cursory reading of the Qur'an shows this.  To act as though they are all the same is just PC mindlessness.  And if you think that what is happening all over the M.E. and the wider world is being caused by Christians or Jews I would wonder about your sanity.  Most of the death and destruction ongoing in the world this day is from Islamists - of that there simply can be no denial by a sane mind.

[Knight Of Shadows]

poor poor kids
hating people is not the answer coz they'll only hate you back
weather those who chant hate loud agree or disagree there is extemeists in all religions
and they're all the same threat level to everybody
like it .. or not it's reality so face it or go back to your hateful illusions
where certain religion doesn't exist but when you are ready to wake up to reality again
that religion is till gonna be there and hate is not going to make it go away
hate makes exteremists out of anyone not only muslims

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 17 November 2012 - 06:23 AM.

[and then]

Knight Of Shadows, on 17 November 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

poor poor kids
hating people is not the answer coz they'll only hate you back
weather those who chant hate loud agree or disagree there is extemeists in all religions
and they're all the same threat level to everybody
like it .. or not it's reality so face it or go back to your hateful illusions
where certain religion doesn't exist but when you are ready to wake up to reality again
that religion is till gonna be there and hate is not going to make it go away
hate makes exteremists out of anyone not only muslims

KoS the extremists in other religions cause problems - even kill in small numbers.  Islamic extremists are responsible for thousands of deaths all over the world.  Denying this makes you lose credibility with reasonable people.

[Knight Of Shadows]

and then, on 17 November 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

KoS the extremists in other religions cause problems - even kill in small numbers.  Islamic extremists are responsible for thousands of deaths all over the world.  Denying this makes you lose credibility with reasonable people.

you wanna talk numbers and then ?
how many people extremeists christians  anti-black group killed ?
how many people extremist hitler christian killed ?
how many palestinians jewish extremists killed
want me to go on ? this surely won't end in your favor
you're just trying to give excuses for the hatefull kids here aren't you ?
i missed arguing with yo btw

[freetoroam]

Orcseeker, on 17 November 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

Christian groups in Uganda. The anti-homosexuality bill and the advocation to rid the country of homosexuals has resulted in hate driven crimes resulting in death.

Christianity was apparently intended to be a non-violent religion. But as soon as the Roman Empire adopted it, anyone who didn't follow the rules were outlawed. Since then we have had the crusades, the inquisition etc. Is this not a form of radicalism?

You say Christianity doesnt do it as much now? Maybe other religions are going though the phase Christianity did a bit later, just in smaller groups of radicals of course.

Uganda?? you compare one militia group formed in 1987 by a primitive power ridden murderer who has been given access to guns, in a country which has corruption for breakfast, to a fanatical group which has been growing for many years all over the world?
The LRA is not a thriving group of people who want to bring down the west and take over the world with their beliefs.
Yes, the christians have done their fair share of murders, but they are not a threat today, so something has been learned from then, but Uganda in not on the same quest.
I am not religious and despise all those who murdered in the past in the name of religion, but today is another day and some cults are still at it, it just so happens its the fanatical islamists.

[Darkwind]

I think we are getting off topic with whole who is the worst extremest. I think we can agree extremism in all its forms is not a good and has created problems through out the world.

Here is an example is people who should have their children removed from their home for teaching and abusing their children with their extremest views.
http://natephelps.com/bio

Imo,  if you teach your children to reason for themselves you will get a better result than if you force a doctrine on them. My kids were never force fed religion and they came out better than I thought they would.  In all the time my children were young I didn't follow a religion.  I didn't have any problems teaching them morals.  What I really tried to instill in them was ethics and empathy.

[TheBanana]

Mr Walker, on 17 November 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Do yo see yoursef as a failure? If not, how can your kids be failures in following your own morals ethics and behaviour? Ethics morality and behaviour are underscored by beliefs.

no, of course i would like to have children who had morals, and are probably not going to end up in jail or as drug addicts, and nomatter what they believe, to be kind to others, even people who are different.....i meant wanting them to grow their own opinions on things like religion, politics and various social issues where there isnt really a right or wrong answer instead of just mindlessly parrot mine. its kinda weird when you find families who have loads and loads of kids.....and all of the kids, even the adult ones, follow all of their parents beliefs unquestioningly, which makes it clear that theyve been taught to parrot, not think.

Call those beliefs religious or not, there is no way to separate them from our general beliefs. A religious persons' beliefs are underlined by religious based values. An atheist  can have the same beliefs and values without a religious component, but must have some "faith based" reason to hold them eg they BELIEVE it is wrong to steal or hurt another person, because they believe.........

people dont do bad things, not because god can see them and send them to hell, but because they have empathy and a concience, which is something everyone naturally develops (unless youre a psychopath)-even if they dont get caught, they would feel guilty for what theyve done, and they avoid being mean to others because they have empathy and know that it hurts other peoples feelings.

If religious belief is a core and integral part of a parents human beliefs then they will not accept that a child can /will be the same as them, without believing as they do. If they have been fulfilled made happy kept safe etc by their belief, then they will believe their children can gain the same advantages via belief

but why not? surely any parent loves their child just the way they are, its not like they are a criminal or anything. i cant see why a parent would be so arrogant as to kick a child out for not following their beliefs, even though they are actually not hurting anyone with them or doing anything wrong. cant people of different religions and atheists just get along?

No parent wants less than the best for their child and will naturally work to deliver positive outcomes for them.

The human brain does not mature in women until the early 20s, and in men until the late twenties. Adolescents  cannpt do the same forms of risk assessments as parents, because that part of their brain is among the last to develop. Brain development in people unde 20 is highly at risk from drugs and alcohol even in small amounts. Children simply do not posses the capacity to think in the way adults can, and so adults must make decisions for them.

yes, thats why parents teach their kids to stay away from drugs, eat heathily and go to school and stuff. religious beliefs or lack of them dont cause any lasting harm. and even if as a teenager they arent quite mature enough to make life decisions......but beliefs can change. even if they decide to have a different religion when theyre a teenager, they might keep it up as an adult, or they might go back to their parents religion or choose a different one. its not like once you leave a religion theres no coming back. theres no harm in letting a child try out other religions (as long as they dont get sucked into a cult)

Long before this was worked out scientifically, humans realised this and  society evolved into authority based on parental control. Modern society is no different  and modern children are biologically no different  apart from a considerably earlier onset of puberty.They still require parental guidance and control, perhaps more so in a society which is breaking down and presents more dangers to young people than ever before.

as i said, parents should have authority over their children, but they also need to prepare them for being adults when they will have to make their own decisions. sure, make sure your child knows that drugs are bad, that hurting other people is wrong, and they need to go to school.....but let them have control over their own bodies in other things, like letting them choose their own friends, their own fashion style, and develop their own opinions on social issues and religion. these things arent permanent, and wont make a difference on how they live their lives in the things that really matter.

And p.s. no, it is not good enough for people to not do things for fear of consequence, or else they will do them if they think they can escape consequence. Tey must learn not to do things because they are ethically/morally wrong to do,  and WHY that is so. Then they will act correctly, even when no one is watching, and when they will not be caught.

not wanting to do something because god will send them to hell forever is also fear of a consequence. you can teach a child morals and ethics without religion, most people develop it naturally anyway, and begin to feel sorry for other people who are sad, feel guilty about doing things wrong even if they didnt get caught....

[Orcseeker]

freetoroam, on 17 November 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Uganda?? you compare one militia group formed in 1987 by a primitive power ridden murderer who has been given access to guns, in a country which has corruption for breakfast, to a fanatical group which has been growing for many years all over the world?
The LRA is not a thriving group of people who want to bring down the west and take over the world with their beliefs.
Yes, the christians have done their fair share of murders, but they are not a threat today, so something has been learned from then, but Uganda in not on the same quest.
I am not religious and despise all those who murdered in the past in the name of religion, but today is another day and some cults are still at it, it just so happens its the fanatical islamists.

Well it was implied extremist radicalism was exclusive to those of Islam, regardless of their foundings and ambitions, what I outlined before is the behaviour of radical extremists that exist outside Islam.

What I outlined before is that Christianity has had levels of extremist radicalism on a nation wide scale. That's absolutely no comparison to what we see today. Ignorance gives birth to this thing and perhaps those in these cultures are exposed to less education and open mindedness than our cultures.

The problem here is people, not beliefs.

[Beckys_Mom]

Orcseeker, on 17 November 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

The problem here is people, not beliefs.

Beliefs cannot exist without the people

[Mr Walker]

Hi banana Couldnt respond to your post as posted, but a few points.

Opinions dont grow from within  without external data and opinion. A parents job is to provide opinion data etc. A parents life experiences and wisdoms should be transfered to a child  through stories converstions rules expectations etc., to give a foundation for their life.  If I believe in certain ethics for good reasons then i want my childen to have the same ethics for the same good reasons, so i teach them, before they can develop less constructive ones.

Empathy, like love, has to be taught to children though demonstration or verbalisation. While humans a re capable of these things they are learned as a part of our socialisation. I agree that, more important than anything else, is a paren'ts role to teachh a child how to love and feel empathy
Wha tis wrong or harmful? My parents would have kicked me out of home at about 15 if i had smoked, done drugs, etc at home because of the influence it would have had on my younger siblings I understood that then and agreed with them, but another child might not. Their values might conflict with their parents and the only solution is for them to leave. A family can't compromise its ethics and standards just to keep a child at home. That is not a religious viewpoint  but a philosophical one.

I never mentioned fear of hell. Religious ethics and morality have little to do with hell, and more with how and why we should live our lives. Religious beliefs are philosophical beliefs and the ethics of religions are basic human ethics and moralities. Religion provides a powerful positive motivation for people to live in a constructive and loving way.

Hell was added as a fear factor to christianity by the cathiolic church many centuries ago  It does more harm than good. Christ (the founder of christianity by default) teaches us how to live as individuals and as members of our society. It is not the only ethicla system around but it is a very constructive and effective one.