Croatian hero Ante Gotovina acquitted of war

[+ouija ouija]

As a citizen of the UK I am finding these recollections by 'ordinary' citizens of Croatia much more interesting than anything in the media. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Just to let you know, the release of General Gotovina was not in the news over here.

[Helen of Annoy]

Thank you smurf. I’m truly sorry for your nephew.

Speaking of lasting peace, it’s general opinion in Croatia that this ruling was huge step towards lasting peace, while it’s general opinion in Serbia it was giant step away from it.

How come? Well, the idea of foundations of lasting peace is different in Croatia and in Serbia. While Croatia believes in good relations with all neighbours but also in minding your own business first, Serbia still hasn't changed anything since the '90s.

I’ll quote current Serbian president, Tomislav Nikolić: “Serbia has a plan to unite in friendship former Yugoslavian republics, but that must be done under condition of equality, which is in no way supported by such ruling of Hague court.”

http://danas.net.hr/balkan/nikolic-presuda-hrvatskim-generalima-otezala-je-pomirenje

Toma Grobar (Toma the Gravedigger, as Serbs affectionately call him) has a plan. And the plan smells of Yugoslavia. Where was he for the last 20 years?

Should I laugh or cry? Sometimes I hope I’m too paranoid and half of my firm beliefs are actually conspiracies and then Toma pops up, spills the beans and proves it’s not me that’s paranoid, it’s their politics that is chronically insane.

[Helen of Annoy]

As a citizen of the UK I am finding these recollections by 'ordinary' citizens of Croatia much more interesting than anything in the media. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Just to let you know, the release of General Gotovina was not in the news over here.

Thank you for noticing us, ouija

I'm sorry it's the horror that draws the attention, there are good things about Croatia and Bosnia too, it's not just blood and guts and ew.

Beautiful nature, friendly people, good food, just don’t drop by during a war, which is approximately every 20 years. We missed one 20 year war cycle, maybe that’s why this last one was so dirty and refused to end.

It’s understandable Gotovina was not in the news, except in Croatia and her neighbourhood, since theoretically the rulings in ICTY cases are strictly about justice and therefore cannot be misused politically. Knowing the world in which we live in, of course every ruling of ICTY has huge political weight.

The missing cases have huge political weight too, but it doesn’t matter. ICTY had no time and resources for going after Serbian generals who bombed the crap out of disarmed Croatia. So be it. As long as they had time to invent 200 metres rule (any projectile that falls 200 metres away from legitimate military target is overuse of artillery) and apply it not on my grandmother’s house but on empty field on the outskirts of Knin.

Politics is dirty always and everywhere, but it seems like it's especially disgusting in this part of the world. Too many times too many crucial facts were turned upside-down to suit the strange interests. ("Strange" as both "weird" and "foreign".)

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Helen I was just wenting there about school director.

I think that we must devide in political thinking eitherway it would be called Partija or Social party.

I’ll quote current Serbian president, Tomislav Nikolić: “Serbia has a plan to unite in friendship former Yugoslavian republics, but that must be done under condition of equality, which is in no way supported by such ruling of Hague court.”

Toma Grobar (Toma the Gravedigger, as Serbs affectionately call him) has a plan. And the plan smells of Yugoslavia. Where was he for the last 20 years?

Should I laugh or cry? Sometimes I hope I’m too paranoid and half of my firm beliefs are actually conspiracies and then Toma pops up, spills the beans and proves it’s not me that’s paranoid, it’s their politics that is chronically insane.

And you should laugh on Toma Grobar or Toma Diploma second nick name due his "education".

Did he thought on Republic Srpska and Serbia?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

my lasting memory of this conflict is of my nephew who won an award for protecting a bosnian village against a serb death squad (we served over there at the same time 1994-95) unfortunatly he couldnt live with what he saw and took his own life a few years later after abusing alcohol .i really hope with all my heart the region has a lasting peace .

Sorry to hear that. I hope all your family is doing well.Take care.

Edited November 22, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

As a citizen of the UK I am finding these recollections by 'ordinary' citizens of Croatia much more interesting than anything in the media. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Just to let you know, the release of General Gotovina was not in the news over here.

Thank you for info.

If you want I could give you insight about many great things in my country. I when I say many I mean it.

About second part of your post. Well my view is different from Helen. Slightly.

It because we defeated your National football team (England) at Wembley which cause that England failed to qualify for Euro 2008. Joke. I wish cause is redicule.

I think it because we are small and irelevant to UK. But also because English doesnt like us. Im not talking about common people.

Im talking about ruling elite. Why?

1.Simply because we are enemies of your friends. Serbia.Thats the main reason why we have bad relations with France.

2.Because we are friends of your historical enemy-Germany. And Austria. Wait in recent years and Ireland. Plus Vatican. Plus Iceland (hint: banks).

3.Historicly speaking many Croats dont like English because of Bleiburg massacre. British army gave POW to Partisans which killed many citizens.

http://en.wikipedia....g_repatriations

4. Also historicly speaking Isolano Croats were given cruel reputation in 30 years war by English. Were they cruel on English? Now that we can argued. Nothing more or less as anyother in that war. Thats my area of interests so we can discuss about history for hours if you like. Nevertheless Isolano Croats played keyrole in 30 years war. They were elite soldiers and they were in famous battle,climax of 30 years war, Battle of Lutzen 1632,as right and left wing of Imperial army where Gustav Adolph was killed, which change course of war and which force France to join the war at their best. So we were on Chatolic side you on Protestant.

5. Puppet Nazi state by mad man Pavelić in Croatia doesnt look good in eyes of West. But, you must understand that things are not black and white. Croats rebeled in Zagreb against Pavelić.Also I dont know do you know who was Josip Broz Tito and Partisans? Well Partisan leader Tito was Croat as many others who served in Partisans,

Tito was one of greatest historical person in general. He opossed Stalin. Opossed UK and USA. He was one of founders of Non-Aligned Movement.

http://en.wikipedia....ligned_Movement

The organization was founded in Belgrade in 1961, and was largely the brainchild of Yugoslavia's president, Josip Broz Tito; Indonesia's first president, Sukarno; Egypt's second president, Gamal Abdel Nasser; Ghana's first president Kwame Nkrumah; and India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru.

Yugoslavia, Egypt, India ...Imagine that. While on Cuba, Soviets operation Anadyr was successfully done.

Edited November 22, 2012 by the L

[Helen of Annoy]

Helen I was just wenting there about school director.

I think that we must devide in political thinking eitherway it would be called Partija or Social party.

Venting is fine, vent on, after all what do I do here but the same

I understand why you think it was wrong and overly to fire people for displaying pictures of generals, but I also believe you understand why I think it was wrong to push the idolatry thing in the wrongest moment possible.

Scoring internal political points when there’s the microscopic chance of damaging the foreign politics is not fine. Expressing is fine, protesting is fine, but hindering the most important process ever with childish idolatry is not fine.

We can have different political opinions and preferences, but the matters of survival are above it.

The Homeland war secured our nation’s physical survival, the legal battle secured our political survival. Both concern the whole nation and must not be hogged or misused by any party, as generals themselves hinted. They were too apolitical to spell it out, but the hints were clear enough even for the most backward crowd to get them: no internal politicking around the war or them personally.

Apolitical military, thank god, finally. Sacrificing themselves for the folk instead of sacrificing the folk for them. Finally.

And you should laugh on Toma Grobar or Toma Diploma second nick name due his "education".

Did he thought on Republic Srpska and Serbia?

No, he had everyone that was trapped in ex-Yu in mind. They want their cosy Serboslavia back, where it was enough to be professional Serb to get everything you need, because saint Serbs are the oldest nation on Earth, Jesus was speaking Serbian and everyone else is genocidal, unaware of their Serbian roots and can repent for not being Serbian enough by serving the Heavenly Folk (Nebeski Narod, I quoted assorted gems of Greater Serbian maniacs).

They also won every war they started, by losing it, which you must admit is a phenomenon, so this anomaly from few days ago is something they do not compute. Some of them obviously had a full-blown meltdown, which is evolving into political soap opera of the century. (Vuk Jeremić, Serbian Foreign Minister, currently president of UN General Assembly is tweeting threats to "international criminals from Hague" and Gotovina's lawyer )

They did everything right: had their hegemony and parasitism supported from outside for decades, attacked disarmed opponents, had incompetent, illiterate but psychopath leadership, lost epically, run away, then started moaning about their pains and sufferings, about hidden murderous intentions of those they murdered, sat back and waited for new conglomerate country to be shaped to please them. Because – hey, we are saint Serbs, someone has to start WWIII for you, we deserve it.

And now... it’s not happening. They are starting to panic, because the myth was not confirmed this time. It was not reinvented, as various prosecutors promised it will be. Myth on which everything in Serbia stands, from the politics to their god awful middle-easternish music.

And with myth of Serbs the benevolent hegemons, sent by Serbian speaking god to rule over genocidal Croats, down goes their economy too.

But they shouldn’t be so sad, their Putin will fix that for them. Or won’t, but the fact that this is finally their problem, not mine, feels good beyond belief.

Edit:

You are not going to get a like for your post above, because ouija specified she’s a British citizen, but nowhere she mentioned being English.

And even if she was English, she certainly wasn’t at Bleiburg. We are not that old, young man

Edited November 22, 2012 by Helen of Annoy

[odas]

Vuk Jeremic. Hm. Is he not the same guy who is ashamed of the nationality and religion of his maternal grandparents? Bosniaks of the Pozderac family who just received the highest jewish honors posthumly because they saved numerous jews in wwll? Funny how life has its way to kick your butt when least expected. But, then again foot in the mouth is a common exercise by serbian politicians.

Then again this honor was not posted in europe. I realy can not see the reason why, ahmm sarcasm.

Ante, welcome to Sarajevo. Just be careful you never know what smrdska rep could start.

[Helen of Annoy]

I had no idea Vuk is of Pozderac family. Are those the same Pozderacs whose Hamdija Pozderac was? ... yep, the same:

http://www.islambosn...hamdije-lipovae

But the timing was amazing, the way it all completely coincidentally coincided... simply amazing. God works in mysterious ways, that’s the only explanation.

I like this quote the best for some inexplicable reason:

"Elem, moj daleki predak, moj čukundeda, Murat-aga Pozderac, dobri i čestiti vladar Cazinske krajine, jedan od poslednjih aga Otomanskog carstva na Balkanu, imao je običaj da kaže: bujrum, rajo, čini što ti drago, ali plati harač, metni dukat u carske bisage, pa onda serbez, široko ti polje! Imam ja vladarsko iskustvo, genetika je to... Bilo je u familiji diplomata, narodnih heroja, ali ja se uvek vraćam na pretka moga, premudrog krajiškog agu Murata Pozderca, koji je pre sto pedeset godina rođen i ceo život je proveo u islamskoj veri i šerijatu... Eee, da mi je danas jedan takav u vladi Srbije, ne bi mi imali muke ni sa Kosovom ni sa Bosnom. Sve bi bilo naše!", napisao je Jeremić.

“So, my distant ancestor, my great-great-grandpa, Murat-aga Pozderac, good and honest ruler of Cazinska krajina, one of last agas of Ottoman empire in Balkans, had the habit of saying: bujrum, folk, do as you please, but pay harač, put gold coin in imperial sack and then serbez, go as you please! I have that experience of a ruler, that’s genetics... There were diplomats, folk heroes in my family, but I always remember my ancestor, more than wise aga Murat Pozderac of Krajina, who was born 150 years ago and spent his whole life in Islamic faith and sharia... Eeeh, if only I had one like that in Serbian government, we would have no trouble with Kosovo or Bosnia. It would all be ours!” wrote Jeremić.

That explains it all. No, really, it does.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Helen of Annoy

[odas]

Bujrum-welcome

Harac-tax

Serbez-leger, easy

Vuk Jeremic-moron

[Helen of Annoy]

With genetic ruling experience, from his Ottoman side, mind you

I may die now, I've lived long enough to see everything fall into its place... Well, not exactly everything yet, but the course was set.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Helen of Annoy,

to their god awful middle-easternish music.

lol

Im not here to collect likes but to tell truth. Ouija is probably one of common people. Like we. I stressed out that common people are good between themselves. Many British came here as tourists and we treat them like lords. Its ruling class which use this arguments for their political goals. Im sure she wasnt on Bleiburg. Even if she was we cant blame common people in British army. But one personell who issused order. But then again how would British know that civilians would be killed? So...Its one of those cases.

Im aware that she didnt stressed out that she was English. But who run the show in UK? Welsh? I dont think so. If you step on English foot be sure all UK will be mad.

Atleast thats how I see it. Anyway, I tried to explain why ruling elite in our countries are having such stances. I could be wrong.

Edited November 24, 2012 by the L

[odas]

England is a beautiful country with good people. Very polite and welcoming. There are of course idiots but we all have them. Their lack of knowledge of what is happening in other parts of the world is to blame on their government and the news that are presented to them. I know that the British government played a dirty role in the balkan conflict but the ordinary citizen somehow new better. We must not forget that the srebian loby had a great influence on Britain and France. Things have changed a bit but not as much as I would like.

Governments are cuting deals to position themselves in the global political and economical market without much consideretion how this will affect the ordinary population.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Odas I think that in future when France, Dutch and UK realy realize what Serbia role was in Ex Yu wars that Serbia will loose friends in West.

Edit: Or is that just my wish... Time will tell.

On another hand Serbia is bridge to Russia. France,UK and Russia were united because of Germany. Question is .-Did UK need Serbia to be good with Russia? Hardly not,when you notice that Germany seek for their interests in Croatia and Turkey in Bosnia. Meaning Russia will never leave Serbia due Orthdox church and due Turkey and Germany and UK intersts on Balkan. Its like balance. Now when USA go involve to protect firstly their interests on Balkan against Russia--meaning Serbia, troguh Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo gave Russians one more reason to protect their Orthodox brothers.

So USA did what was so obvious. Croatia was joined in NATO. So now, things are little different when Croatia become 1st USA country on Balkan plus they build largest fortress in Europe-Kosovo. Many reasons why there. Geopolitical.

Edited November 24, 2012 by the L

[odas]

I think slowly they realize. Kosovo general Haradinaj was just aquitet of alleged war crimes during the 98/99 agression of serbia on kosovo. Another victory for the truth.

[Helen of Annoy]

I think slowly they realize. Kosovo general Haradinaj was just aquitet of alleged war crimes during the 98/99 agression of serbia on kosovo. Another victory for the truth.

No, they don’t. Not yet.

For Serbian top politicians and all their media it’s the Vatican controlling Madeline Albright or vice versa... You can’t find one media (or god forbid, an influential politician) in Serbia that will even mention it was Serbian expansionist aggression that made others defend their own lives.

Serbian politicians can be persuaded, at best, to accept Milosevic (and no one else) was a little out of line but they will never face the truth. It’s the consequence of almost 100 years of politics that favoured, whitewashed and encouraged chetnik bestiality.

They still refuse to admit they started the war, intentionally targeted non-Serbian civilians as part of their ethnic cleansing project, and they especially refuse to admit they lost that war.

They have extremists in power, legally elected, who still hope for some supernatural Russian (and Russian-influenced semi-European) intervention that will reinstate them as the leading authority in the region.

My country is finally out of that region, the oxymoronic West Balkans was reduced to Serbia or what will be left from Serbia after all rightful secessions are finished, and Toma Grobar won’t learn anything from that. Chetniks will never understand it were their actions, their crimes that drove their first neighbours, people who might have been their natural allies, away from them. They simply don’t understand the importance of reciprocity, if not equality.

It’s sad but not important. Not anymore.

Congratulations to Kosovars, may we all live to see some boring times for a change

Edited November 29, 2012 by Helen of Annoy

[+ouija ouija]

Helen of Annoy,

to their god awful middle-easternish music.

lol

Im not here to collect likes but to tell truth. Ouija is probably one of common people. Like we. I stressed out that common people are good between themselves. Many British came here as tourists and we treat them like lords. Its ruling class which use this arguments for their political goals. Im sure she wasnt on Bleiburg. Even if she was we cant blame common people in British army. But one personell who issused order. But then again how would British know that civilians would be killed? So...Its one of those cases.

Im aware that she didnt stressed out that she was English. But who run the show in UK? Welsh? I dont think so. If you step on English foot be sure all UK will be mad.

Atleast thats how I see it. Anyway, I tried to explain why ruling elite in our countries are having such stances. I could be wrong.

I'm still reading the posts here!

I am very definitely a 'common' person and I am English. Something that I need to correct though: if an English foot is trodden on, Welsh, Scottish and Irish citizens will be laughing, I can assure you!

The last members of my family to fight in a war were my father and two of my uncles in WW2. This is what is so crazy about war(in general), the common man doesn't want to fight the common man from the enemy country once he has seen him face to face, seen the effect of bombing. It's the so-called 'elite' who fire them up and feed them propaganda.

I wish I could afford to visit your beautiful country

I also laughed at Helen's comment about Serbian music!

England is a beautiful country with good people. Very polite and welcoming. There are of course idiots but we all have them. Their lack of knowledge of what is happening in other parts of the world is to blame on their government and the news that are presented to them. I know that the British government played a dirty role in the balkan conflict but the ordinary citizen somehow new better. We must not forget that the srebian loby had a great influence on Britain and France. Things have changed a bit but not as much as I would like.

Governments are cuting deals to position themselves in the global political and economical market without much consideretion how this will affect the ordinary population.

What you say is true and what leaves me speechless is that our government doesn't even try to hide the fact that it is not the slightest bit concerned about plight of the ordinary population.

[Helen of Annoy]

Good

In that case, a little update:

Now the Croatian far right has declared general Gotovina has betrayed their cause by speaking sanely, rationally and calmly.

They resent him everything: calling the nation to turn to the future, thanking the mostly lefty Croatian officials on their efforts to prove the legality of Homeland war, inviting Serbs to return to their homes in Croatia, they resent him his “pacifism” and even his Catholicism(!).

Practically anonymous neo-fascists (and it’s klerofašizam, fascism with quasi-religious base!) accuse the general who has liberated Croatia of treason and of too much Christian pacifism. *gasp*

Croatian far right always was troll-ridden, but luckily, they have zero influence on grown-up, literate population. And now they have committed political, moral and social suicide, to my endless amusement.

I can’t wait for their next step. It will be like in that old joke: “Yesterday we were at the edge of a cliff and today we have made a big step forward.”

If their feet lodged deeply in their mouths don't prevent them from taking any further steps.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Helen of Annoy