92 replies to this topic

[MichaelW]

ExpandMyMind, on 16 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

If this is true it is actually quite mind blowing. It is further proof that peace is the last thing the Israeli Govt wants.

So, the previous rocket attacks against Israel this year before his assassination was an act of peace and reconciliation?

Quote

This is the sort of situation that Hamas had for years been moving towards: long term peace. And I have been saying for years now that violent Hamas is far preferable to the Israeli Govt than peaceful Hamas.

Of course. Because we should all trust the words of terrorists. Look, I'm not going to condone either side's actions only to say that it was to be expected given the circumstances, but you ex, claiming to be "informed" must know that Hamas has been firing off rockets before the assassination occurred? Or do we only ignore the acts that don't adhere to our specific agendas?

Ambush Bug, on 17 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

The Gazans have absolutely no freedom of movement.

Blame Hamas for that. Hamas is a splinter from the Muslim Brotherhood and there is an MB as President of Egypt. So, naturally, you'd assume that there'd be negotiations to alleviate the problem?

And here's another thing. How can anyone support a government that executes people for drug use, harasses political opponents and locks women away for having children out of wedlock.

[B Jenkins]

MichaelW, on 17 November 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Blame Hamas for that. Hamas is a splinter from the Muslim Brotherhood and there is an MB as President of Egypt. So, naturally, you'd assume that there'd be negotiations to alleviate the problem?

And here's another thing. How can anyone support a government that executes people for drug use, harasses political opponents and locks women away for having children out of wedlock.

Gaza has been under tight siege since 2007. Furthermore, half the population of Gaza is CHILDREN and more than a million of Gazans are registered refugees with the UNRWA and dependent on regular food aid.

Hamas won the elections soundly. That is no justification for any Shariah laws they may enact. Nonetheless, this was a rare democratic exercise for the Arab world and the international community punished them for it.

[B Jenkins]

44% of Gazans are 14 years old or younger.

    Population

1,710,257 (July 2011 est.)

    Age structure

0-14 years: 43.9% (male 374,110/female 354,088)
15-64 years: 53.5% (male 453,253/female 432,855)
65 years and over: 2.6% (male 17,326/female 25,523) (2011 est.)

Median age

total: 17.7 years
male: 17.5 years
female: 17.9 years (2011 est.)

http://www.indexmund...cs_profile.html

Edited by Ambush Bug, 17 November 2012 - 08:02 AM.

[MichaelW]

Ambush Bug, on 17 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Gaza has been under tight siege since 2007. Furthermore, half the population of Gaza is CHILDREN and more than a million of Gazans are registered refugees with the UNRWA and dependent on regular food aid.

Interesting. Notice that this is only in Gaza. Just goes to show that you have to put some blame on Hamas.

Quote

Hamas won the elections soundly.

Then removed all political opposition. That doesn't sound like a very democratic party (Fatah isn't either but they don't have paramilitaries launching missiles and sending suicide bombers out).

Quote

That is no justification for any Shariah laws they may enact. Nonetheless, this was a rare democratic exercise for the Arab world and the international community punished them for it.

Since when did the "international community" consist of Israel? And rare democratic action for the Arab world? Algeria, Lebanon, Jordan and Morocco have been considered democracies for decades.

[odas]

MichaelW, on 17 November 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

Interesting. Notice that this is only in Gaza. Just goes to show that you have to put some blame on Hamas.




Then removed all political opposition. That doesn't sound like a very democratic party (Fatah isn't either but they don't have paramilitaries launching missiles and sending suicide bombers out).



Since when did the "international community" consist of Israel? And rare democratic action for the Arab world? Algeria, Lebanon, Jordan and Morocco have been considered democracies for decades.

Sure. But then, they are not refugees in their own land. Any movement by the palestinians towards peace was undermind by the isrealy government. While I for sure do not blame jews or palestinians I blame both leaderships for the escalation. However the israely giverment is playing a much dirtier game.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Obviously there was something in the peace agreement about "sharing weapons" so both sides decided to share their weapons, violently and all over the place.

[MichaelW]

odas, on 17 November 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Sure. But then, they are not refugees in their own land. Any movement by the palestinians towards peace was undermind by the isrealy government. While I for sure do not blame jews or palestinians I blame both leaderships for the escalation. However the israely giverment is playing a much dirtier game.

I wouldn't personally say it was undermined by the Israeli government, but yes, both leaders on both sides have a lot of explaining to do. Unfortunately, many members on this forum lack perspective and so only see everything in black or white.

Personally, I want to see a free Palestine. Free from Israel and free from it's current undemocratic and rather repressive leaders.

[Black Red Devil]

ExpandMyMind, on 16 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

http://www.huffingto..._n_2142045.html



http://www.haaretz.c...remium-1.478085


If this is true it is actually quite mind blowing. It is further proof that peace is the last thing the Israeli Govt wants.

This is the sort of situation that Hamas had for years been moving towards: long term peace. And I have been saying for years now that violent Hamas is far preferable to the Israeli Govt than peaceful Hamas.

Hi Ex, long time no hear.

I think you're onto something here considering the recent coalition of the two right wing parties in Israel, Netanyahu's Likud and Lieberman's ultranationalist Yisrael Beitenu.  Neither party has on their agenda a peaceful resolution with the Palestinians.

http://www.hurriyetd...6&NewsCatID=352

[ExpandMyMind]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 18 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Hi Ex, long time no hear.

I think you're onto something here considering the recent coalition of the two right wing parties in Israel, Netanyahu's Likud and Lieberman's ultranationalist Yisrael Beitenu.  Neither party has on their agenda a peaceful resolution with the Palestinians.

http://www.hurriyetd...6&NewsCatID=352

Thanks for the info and I'm glad to see you're also back.

Unfortunately though, I don't have the time these days - nor the desire to be honest - to sustain these endless debates.

[Black Red Devil]

ExpandMyMind, on 18 November 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Thanks for the info and I'm glad to see you're also back.

Unfortunately though, I don't have the time these days - nor the desire to be honest - to sustain these endless debates.

Thanks mate.  Yeah, same here. Sometimes it feels like going around in circles saying the same old things over and over.

[Professor Buzzkill]

I prefer having a western friendly country (Isreal) in the ME rather than another arm of the muslim brotherhood (how evil does that name sound?)

The key factor in a peaceful country is separation of the church and state. And that goes for both sides in this conflict.

Edited by Professor Buzzkill, 19 November 2012 - 02:57 AM.

[and then]

Professor Buzzkill, on 19 November 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

I prefer having a western friendly country (Isreal) in the ME rather than another arm of the muslim brotherhood (how evil does that name sound?)

The key factor in a peaceful country is separation of the church and state. And that goes for both sides in this conflict.

Israel is about as secular a country as you can find.  Large population of Atheists and the Orthodox crowd tend to be marginalized from what I read.  For all their perceived faults, being radical religionists isn't one that jumps out.

[Coffey]

OverSword, on 16 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

There are probably factions on both sides that desire peace and also faction on both sides that just want to kill each other.

I wish all the nutjobs who want to kill each other would jsut go off somewhere and do exatly that. Leave all the innocent people who want peace to live.

Edited by Coffey, 19 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[and then]

ExpandMyMind, on 16 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

http://www.huffingto..._n_2142045.html



http://www.haaretz.c...remium-1.478085


If this is true it is actually quite mind blowing. It is further proof that peace is the last thing the Israeli Govt wants.

This is the sort of situation that Hamas had for years been moving towards: long term peace. And I have been saying for years now that violent Hamas is far preferable to the Israeli Govt than peaceful Hamas.

You may be correct that the current government doesn't prefer peace - I don't think you are, but you MAY be.  Jabari - by Gershon's own admission (I heard him on LinkTV giving an interview about this article) - would not even speak to a Jew and made it VERY clear that he was only interested in hudna, that peace was never possible until Israel was no longer.  That's just the truth of the matter.  Maybe that is the best that can be expected here.  Making the periods of quiet longer and more numerous will be a great thing if it can be achieved.

[TheLastLazyGun]

Quote

This is the sort of situation that Hamas had for years been moving towards: long term peace.

So why did they start firing rockets into Israel?  Did they do it accidentally?

Quote

And I have been saying for years now that violent Hamas is far preferable to the Israeli Govt than peaceful Hamas.

Is that the same "peaceful" Hamas which not only started this current conflict by firing missiles into Israel but does so on a regular basis?

Is that the same "peaceful" Hamas which uses the people of Gaza as human shields, something which has been noticed by many people yet, for some strange reason, has not been considered bad enough by the UN to issue Hamas with any UN resolution?

Is that the same "peaceful" Hamas which regularly tortures and terrorises the people of Gaza, leading to human rights groups targeting the organising for its human rights abuses but which, again, has not been punished by the UN for issuing Hamas with any UN resolution?