10148 replies to this topic

[zoser]

747400, on 09 December 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

No, i mean that tiresome lolpic. I wasn't talking about anyone who may have had anything to contribute to the discussion.

Apologies if I misunderstood.

[Slave2Fate]

zoser, on 09 December 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

No sane man can believe that a twenty-ton stone was pecked here and there, dropped into position, hoisted out and trued and cut over and over again, until a perfect fit was obtained. Even if we can imagine such endless herculean labor being performed, it would have been impossible in many cases owing to the fact that the stones are locked or dovetailed together. Although some of the stones are fairly square or rectangular and with six faces, many are irregular in form, and some have as many as thirty-two angles. The only way in which such complex forms could have been fitted with such incredible accuracy was by cutting each block to extremely fine measurements, or by means of a template, a process which would indicate that these prehistoric people possessed a most thorough and advanced knowledge of engineering and the higher mathematics.

http://davidpratt.info/andes2.htm

Your argument is pure sophistry.  No one has ever seen megalithic precision architecture in process.  If they have they never wrote about it or recorded the fact.  We do have folklore and that points strongly to the AA hypothesis.

If the Inca were responsible where were the blueprints?  Why wasn't the technology plundered by the Spanish?  It would have been equally as valuable as gold; the ability to lift and cut hard stone effortlessly.

In answer to your other questions; the evidence suggests that something cataclysmic occurred.  The ruins at PP and other sites around the world testify to this.  Look carefully at that site.  Maybe some major planetary cycle came to an end; the flood, or similar.  Whatever happened their time here came to an end.

Nothing has been constructed here since.  That's a huge smoking gun.

You seem to have missed this part in the very next paragraph after the bit you quoted.

Quote

Garcilaso de la Vega wrote in 1609 that the Incas ‘had no other tools to work the stones than some black stones ... with which they dressed the stone by pounding rather than cutting’. Jose de Acosta, a Jesuit priest travelling with the conquistadors, wrote in 1589: ‘All this was done with much manpower and much suffering in the work, for to fit one stone to the other, until they were adjusted, it was necessary to try the fit many times.’3 There is no doubt that such techniques were used during Inca times.

So, when you say nobody has witnessed these structures being built or that they have never been written of, then you are being dishonest.

Edited by Slave2Fate, 09 December 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[zoser]

Oniomancer, on 09 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Yes, we see two different types of construction, in two different locations within Ollyantaytambo in two different situations. All the big construction is confined to the so called temple hill, the rest is lining a series of farming terraces.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ollantaytambo

You're expressing amazement that there's a difference in stone work between a manorhouse and a nearby garden wall.

If megalithic precision construction came to them so easily why not do the same of the terraces?  It would be far more sound and long lasting.  Yet someone employed radically different methods.

[zoser]

Slave2Fate, on 09 December 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

You seem to have missed this part in the very next paragraph after the bit you quoted.

The ravings of another casual expert no doubt.

[badeskov]

zoser, on 09 December 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

The ravings of another casual expert no doubt.

Sigh. The "casual expert" was there watching them do the work as I understand it.

Cheers,
Badeskov

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

What was the population of these ancient societies? Surely from the scale of them, and the number of them, and the time it must have taken to build these places, it must have tied up a fair percentage of the able-bodied population full-time for years. Maybe that's why they became extinct; they spent so much time building things like this that they didn't bother with growing food & so on.

[Slave2Fate]

zoser, on 09 December 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

The ravings of another casual expert no doubt.

A casual expert?

More like proof positive that you don't read anything except what you want.

They were quotes from people who were actually there!!!

Go troll somewhere else.

[the L]

Slave2Fate, on 09 December 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

The attempted comparison to today's culture just doesn't work. The ancient cultures did not view time the same way we do today, the more time and effort that went into something the more significant and meaningful it was. They would likely view the pace at which we live today with disdain or even contempt.

Furthermore, a copper axe cutting down a tree has nothing to do with the way ancients cut and shaped stone, and they could most certainly cut down trees.

It doesnt work because it doesnt fit into your story.
They sure seen time the same as we today. They also sleep 8 hours. In fact ancient invented our calendar. In Mesopotamia.
First calendars were lunar calendars. Every 28 days they saw full moon so they ask why. So they set calendar. Moon calendar. I think oldest dates 10 000 BC. (?)
Then they set star calendar and sun calendar. For crops. For navigation. I ancient books we ofetn read : "when orion is rising."

Then all folklore stories and sayings are same in every corner of the world in essence. Because they are based on observations.
Then 1st sophisticated calendar was set in Babylon. 60 based system.
60 system based time because it can be diveded with 12 months and 30 days,lowest number that can be divde with both.
They have had 12 months plus additional 1. So 13. (?)
7th day 14th 21, 28th day were unlucky days to them. So that days they didnt want to do anything.Hint- Beging of weeks.
20 day in month was lucky day. Why? Because it was 49 day of previos month. 7x7 =49.
Shubatum was fullmoon day Hebrews took it as hsabat.
Then Greek and Romans took it.Then Julian Ceaser reform -ever 4 years one day add.
Early Romans have 10 months starting from march because of spring equinociue didnt have january and february...late 12 and 13 month called mercenery because thats when you will get paid.
In 528 AD Gregorian chatolic reform calendar.

Furthermore,dont know where are you from but where I grew up I was told that copper tools were used for social hierarchy. For show.
With copper axe you cant cut bones or trees.why did they done it? It wasnt technological advance it was social.
Now if you dont believe me, ask any historian, metallurgists, or even went in shop where you can buy gold and ask.
It was for atenttion. Prestige. Bronze axe was used for beneficiary or damage.


Copper has hardness 2,5 from 10 as Diamond. Bronze 4 or 4,5 Iron 5 and Steel 7.Stone(Microlite) is usualy 7.Granite is combination of 7,6 and 2 but nevertheless due it structure its harder then it should be.

Point Copper is useless. 2,5 Mohs. Bronze is 4 and usual stone is 7 as Steel. But Bronze could do most of stones. Personally I dont believe that some works in diorite and granite can be done with bronze. Iron slightly harder then Bronze.

I would like to see one cutting trees with copper tool.
You must know that till discovery of iron people used stone tools in Euroasia. Why? Because Microlite is harder then finest bronze.

[Oniomancer]

zoser, on 09 December 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

If megalithic precision construction came to them so easily why not do the same of the terraces?  It would be far more sound and long lasting.  Yet someone employed radically different methods.

Who said it was easy? You do enjoy injecting strawmen. If we were to follow this train of thought though, why isn't every building today built like Parliament or the US Capital building?
The vast majority of the the precise megalithics seem to be important structures like temples, palaces and battlements while the others are more utilitarian structures. A rather interesting coincidence, wouldn't you say?

[zoser]

badeskov, on 09 December 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Sigh. The "casual expert" was there watching them do the work as I understand it.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Let's be clear; no one has been able to witness precision megalithic constructions; if the did it was never recorded.

[zoser]

Oniomancer, on 09 December 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Who said it was easy? You do enjoy injecting strawmen. If we were to follow this train of thought though, why isn't every building today built like Parliament or the US Capital building?
The vast majority of the the precise megalithics seem to be important structures like temples, palaces and battlements while the others are more utilitarian structures. A rather interesting coincidence, wouldn't you say?

Put it this way; does it appear that the constructions were necessary for daily survival?  Definitely not; if the constructions were the result of blood, sweat and toil, the burden on the community would have been immense.

It had to be easy by our standards; then why not replicate it across the Inca world?

Answer; it was not the Inca.  The Inca produced far inferior work.

[JGirl]

zoser, on 09 December 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

No sane man can believe that a twenty-ton stone was pecked here and there, dropped into position, hoisted out and trued and cut over and over again, until a perfect fit was obtained. Even if we can imagine such endless herculean labor being performed, it would have been impossible in many cases owing to the fact that the stones are locked or dovetailed together. Although some of the stones are fairly square or rectangular and with six faces, many are irregular in form, and some have as many as thirty-two angles. The only way in which such complex forms could have been fitted with such incredible accuracy was by cutting each block to extremely fine measurements, or by means of a template, a process which would indicate that these prehistoric people possessed a most thorough and advanced knowledge of engineering and the higher mathematics.

http://davidpratt.info/andes2.htm

Your argument is pure sophistry.  No one has ever seen megalithic precision architecture in process.  If they have they never wrote about it or recorded the fact.  We do have folklore and that points strongly to the AA hypothesis.

If the Inca were responsible where were the blueprints?  Why wasn't the technology plundered by the Spanish?  It would have been equally as valuable as gold; the ability to lift and cut hard stone effortlessly.

In answer to your other questions; the evidence suggests that something cataclysmic occurred.  The ruins at PP and other sites around the world testify to this.  Look carefully at that site.  Maybe some major planetary cycle came to an end; the flood, or similar.  Whatever happened their time here came to an end.

Nothing has been constructed here since.  That's a huge smoking gun.

ok you are purposely avoiding any type of logic in this thread.
i vote you are trolling.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

zoser, on 09 December 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Looks like quite a few people have serious questions about orthodox archaeology!

The moment we see how respectable archaeologists behave to the initial word of discoveries at places like Glozel, or the Chinese Pyramids, or (damn memory fails...) stone age cave paintings or the litany of other petty "we already know the answer, the new information is false" makes us have serious questions about orthodox archaeology.
However, even having those questions, even having seen possibly genuine sites be ignored for years if not to date, and even destroyed does not give us the right to say "orthodox archaeology is full of close-minded pillocks, therefore aliens".

It does mean that those of us pushing unorthodox ideas need to be better then them, better are making our cases, better at being scientific, better at being aware of the findings and (yes) better losers if more convincing information comes to light.

[badeskov]

zoser, on 09 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Put it this way; does it appear that the constructions were necessary for daily survival?  Definitely not; if the constructions were the result of blood, sweat and toil, the burden on the community would have been immense.

Indeed the constructions being the topic of discussion were not necessary for daily survival, but so what? Was stone henge necessary for daily survival? Was Notre Dame in Paris? Was St. Peter's basilica? You are completely ignoring the culture at the time in question and applying your own.

Quote

It had to be easy by our standards; then why not replicate it across the Inca world?

Who said it was easy?

Quote

Answer; it was not the Inca.  The Inca produced far inferior work.

Really? By all means of respect, but you are completely ignoring the information put forth by other posters here to fuel your own ignorance.

Cheers,
Badeskov

[the L]

zoser, on 09 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Answer; it was not the Inca.  

True. Some sites were not done by Inca. It was done by pre-Inca cultures/civilizations.