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The Ancient Alien Theory Is True


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#3421    zoser

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:26 AM

View Postsynchronomy, on 29 December 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Pouring molten rock into molds, fusing rocks together with lasers?
More information is needed about vitrification.  How it happens, why etc.
These videos keep showing it and I'm wondering what archeologists (real ones) say about it.

There is only one thing to say about it.  Intense heat.  Think about glass and how it is made.

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#3422    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:52 AM

View Postzoser, on 29 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

There is only one thing to say about it.  Intense heat.  Think about glass and how it is made.
which, as you rightly point out, is done with glassmaking.
dangerous and time consuming certainly - but the question remains is it also doable?

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#3423    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:53 AM

View Postzoser, on 29 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

There is only one thing to say about it.  Intense heat.  Think about glass and how it is made.

Not at all:


Shiny, dense and black varnishes form on basalt, fine quartzites and metamorphosed shales due to these rocks' relatively high resistance to weathering.

http://en.wikipedia..../Desert_varnish



Desert Rock Varnish

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The slowest accumulating terrestrial sedimentary deposit known, desert varnish is usually dark brown to black in color depending on the relative abundance of MnO2. Archaeologists often utilize desert varnish for relative age determinations. Although this application has proven unreliable, recent studies suggest that the chemical microstratigraphy in desert varnish can provide valuable information about past environmental fluctuations. Other applications of desert varnish have also been found. While some varnish deposits are uniform and continuous, most desert varnish appears in discontinuous patches of variable thickness and texture (Staley et al., 1991). The primary components which make up desert varnish are clays and iron and manganese oxides that are derived from air-borne dust and other sources external to the underlying rock. Clay minerals, such as montmorillonite and illite, comprise more than 70 percent of the varnish and are involved in manganese fixation. Iron (predominantly ferric) and manganese oxides constitute the bulk of the remainder (~30%) and are dispersed
throughout the clay layer.

Desert varnish has been around for nearly 100,000 years, and can be found worldwide in arid to semiarid environments. For centuries, desert varnish has invoked scientific curiosity. Alexander von Humboldt first noticed desert varnish in the early nineteenth century while traveling through South America (Liu and Broecker, 2000); Charles Darwin observed it on his early expeditions as well (Staley et al., 1991). Defined as a distinct morphological entity which appears naturally as a thin, dark coating, desert varnish has an abrupt boundary with the underlying rock.

The primary components which make up desert varnish are clays and iron and manganese oxides that are derived from air-borne dust and other sources external to the underlying rock. Although these varnishes are widespread, no comprehensive global comparisons of their occurrences and properties have been conducted. Most work on desert varnish has been directed towards its characterization and understanding its origin (Staley et al., 1991). Clay minerals, such as montmorillonite and illite, comprise more than 70 percent of the varnish and are involved in manganese fixation. Illite in particular is known to fix Mn under pH and oxidation-reduction conditions at which varnish forms. Small amounts of kaolinite and chlorite are present in some samples (Potter and Rossman, 1977). The average composition of the complex clay mixture in extracted varnish was determined by electron microprobe analysis to be as follows: Na0.2 K0.3(Al1.6Mg0.3Fe0.2)(Si3.5Al0.5O10)(OH)2 Iron (predominantly ferric) and manganese oxides constitute the bulk of the remainder (~30%) and are dispersed throughout the clay layer. These oxides are likely present as external coatings on the clay particles. It has been suggested that the clay and oxide phases in desert varnish may be mutually dependent: the clay depends on oxides for resistance to erosion, and oxides depend on clay for transport and deposition (Potter and Rossman, 1977).

In 1981, Dorn and Oberlander observed that manganese-rich varnish is often present in places where water intermittently streams over rock surfaces. These moistened surfaces are favorable for microbial colonization and development. Based on these observations, they suggested that natural desert varnish and other manganese rich rock varnishes in nondesert environments are products of microbial activity in which microorganisms concentrate ambient manganese that becomes greatly enhanced in brown to black varnish.

The growth rates of rock varnish vary from <1 to 40 µm per thousand years on subaerially exposed rock surfaces and rarely reach thicknesses >200 µm, regardless of age. The primary components which make up desert varnish are clays (nearly 70%) and iron and manganese oxides that are derived from air-borne dust and other sources external to the underlying rock


http://www.aquatic-e...ck_Varnish.html



Most earth scientists thinking about geochemical sediments envision stratigraphic sequences, not natural rock exposures. Yet, rarely do we see the true coloration and appearance of natural rock faces without some masking by biogeochemical curtains. Geochemical sediments known as rock coatings (Table 8.1) control the hue and chroma of bare-rock landscapes. Tufa and travertine (Chapter 6), beachrock (Chapter 11), and nitrate efflorescences (Chapter 12) exemplify circumstances where geochemical sediments can cover rocks. Perhaps because its ability to alter a landscape’s appearance dramatically  (Fig. 8.1), the literature on rock varnish remains one of the largest in the general arena of rock coatings (Chapter 10 in Dorn 1998).

>>> Table 8.1. Different types of rock coatings (adapted from Dorn, 1998)


http://alliance.la.a...lSediments.html



There are over a dozen different types of rock coatings (Table 1).  Within each type, tremendous variety exists at spatial scales from kilometres to micrometres. For example, there are at least six different types of silica glazes (Dorn, 1998: 294-312).  Interdigitation also exists between different types of rock coatings, resulting in complex microstratigraphic sequences. For example, lava flows in the arid Ashikule Basin of Tibet host carbonate skins, dust films, lithobiontic coatings, oxalate crusts, phosphate skins, rock varnish, silica glazes, and sulfate crusts. In another example, lithobionts like lichens are normally associated with rock weathering, but they can also play key roles in generating silica glazes (Lee and Parsons, 1999) and oxalate crusts (Beazley et al., 2002). Given the variety and complexity of rock coatings, it should be of no surprise that researchers not infrequently confuse different types of coatings in their data collection and analysis.

http://alliance.la.a...ckCoatings.html


Silica Glaze  is a broad category of rock coatings that are dominated by amorphous silica with variable amounts of aluminum and iron.  They are usually less than 200µm thick, with a clear white to orange shiny luster, but they can be darker in appearance.  Silica glazes have been noted in warm deserts, cold deserts like Antarctica, on dry tropical islands, along tropical rivers, mid-latitude humid temperate settings, and various archaeological contexts. Silica glazes probably precipitate from soluble Al-Si complexes [Al(OSi(OH)3)2+] that are released from the weathering of phyllosilicate minerals.

http://alliance.la.a...tingsBasic.html



So you see, a 'glaze' can be formed naturally.

What I suggest is that the Incas used a chemical form of 'weathering' to create a shiny varnish on their stones.


#3424    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:56 AM

From the link in your post #2294 , Zoser :

Whilst the spectra do not show explicitly that the surface is vitrified, the composition is that of a glaze. It has a different makeup to the limestone body. This means it is very likely that the glaze was made from a ceramic paste applied to the limestone surface. This is clear from the comparison with the ancient glazed ceramic pottery shards.

http://blog.world-my...stiges-of-peru/


Like I showed you in my former post, this glaze can be created via a different process.


#3425    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

Like I said, Davidovits theory and succesful experiments don't mean the Incas molded and by that created the huge megalithic stones, only that they could have used a similar and readily available technique to give their stones a shiny and smoothly polished surface. I you reread what I posted you will maybe come up (again) with the fact that no calciumcarbonate is present in the stones, but calciumoxide is, as I showed you, and that works even better.


Recent discoveries and work by a Dr Joseph Davidovits of the Geopolymer Institute have produced some remarkable insights into the processes the ancients may well have used to construct these amazing fortresses. Softening Stone with Plant Extracts.

Amazingly, a recent ethnological discovery has actually shown that some witch-doctors of the HUANKA tradition remarkably, use no tools in the making of small stone objects, but in fact still use a chemical solution made from plant extracts to actually soften the stone material!

According to Dr. Davidovits, in a paper that was written by Dr. Davidovits, A. Bonnett and A.M. Marriote and presented at the 21st International Symposium for Archaeometry at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York, USA in 1981: “The starting stone material (silicate or silico-aluminate) is dissolved by the organic extracts, and the viscous slurry is then poured into a mould where it hardens. This technique, when mastered, allows a sort of cement to be made by dissolving rocks; statues which could have been made by the technique of the pre-incan HUANKA, by dissolution followed by geopolymeric agglomeration, are found to contain Ca-oxalate in the stone.”

The trio then proposed the hypothesis that the large stones in found in the Mayan Fortresses and monuments were in reality, artificial and had in fact been agglomerated with a binder after certain rocks had been slowly disaggregated, an idea that fits very well with what the walls look like and also happens to be in total agreement with local legends and traditions such as those that were told to Fawcett.

The group then even went on to present to the meeting some actual samples of stone that had dissolved and re-aggregated themselves to prove it!

“We present here the first results on plant extracts on the dissolution or dis-aggregation of calcium carbonate containing rocks (Bio-tooling action). The feasibility of chemically working calcium carbonate with various carboxylic acids found in plants (acetic, oxalic and citric acid) has been studied. Maximum bio-tooling action is obtained with a solution containing:

Vinegar (1 M) (acetic acid)
Oxalic acid (0.9 M)
Citric acid (0.78 M)


The great surprise was actually to discover very ancient references to their use since Neolithic times for working materials which are very hard but easily attacked by acids, such as chalk. Thus, a bas-relief from the tomb of Mera, at SAQQARAH (VI dynasty, 3Millenium B.C., Egypt) shows the hollowing out of "Egyptian alabaster" (CaCO3) vases by a liquid contained in a water skin or bladder. An experiment of interest was to compare the "bio-tooling" technique with the shaping of a hole using a steel tool and the quartz sand technique recommended by prehistorians. The hole resulting from sand abrasion has rough walls, whereas bio-tooling gives a smooth finish.”


http://www.unexplain...95#entry4587189


#3426    zoser

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 29 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

which, as you rightly point out, is done with glassmaking.
dangerous and time consuming certainly - but the question remains is it also doable?

I don't understand the question.  It has been done.  It's there in the caves wherever there are precision cuts, and in the blocks on the wall wherever there is precision fitting.  It's not to be found in the less accurate Inca or Spanish relics.

There is no subjective debate to be had.  It's there and that's it.  The question you should be asking is what technology achieved it?

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#3427    zoser

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:48 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 December 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Not at all:


So you see, a 'glaze' can be formed naturally.

What I suggest is that the Incas used a chemical form of 'weathering' to create a shiny varnish on their stones.

It's a brave try Abe; but they didn't apply chemicals to stone left behind in a quarry or cave did they? That's it and no clever argument can be made to say otherwise.

Making a nice finish on a wall is one thing, but not in a quarry.  That's the virtue of looking carefully at evidence.  

This is just digging a deeper and deeper hole.  Can't you see that?

OK here we go, here's the refutation of 'Desert varnish' from wiki:

Desert varnish or rock varnish is an orange-yellow to black coating found on exposed rock surfaces in arid environments

In caves?  Really

Posted Image

Edited by zoser, 29 December 2012 - 11:55 AM.

Posted Image


#3428    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:53 AM

View Postzoser, on 29 December 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

It's a brave try Abe; but they didn't apply chemicals to stone left behind in a quarry or cave did they.  That's it and no clever argument can be made to say otherwise.

Making a nice finish on a wall is one thing, but not in a quarry.  That's the virtue of looking carefully at evidence.  It's just digging a deeper and deeper hole.  Can't you see that?

I first have to see a chemical analysis of the compounds inside the surface layer of those stones.

If not, then we can't be sure whether the shine was created by applying heat or by chemically alteration by means of organic acids.

And the shine in the quarry could have formed by a natural process.


#3429    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:58 AM

View Postzoser, on 29 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

I don't understand the question.  It has been done.  It's there in the caves wherever there are precision cuts, and in the blocks on the wall wherever there is precision fitting.  It's not to be found in the less accurate Inca or Spanish relics.

There is no subjective debate to be had.  It's there and that's it.  The question you should be asking is what technology achieved it?
That's what I'm tryung to do, trying and failing it seems.
I'm trying to explore the suggestion that the precision cut rocks were actually cast into their precise shapes and how this may have been achieved.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#3430    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:00 PM

View Postzoser, on 29 December 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:



OK here we go, here's the refutation of 'Desert varnish' from wiki:

Desert varnish or rock varnish is an orange-yellow to black coating found on exposed rock surfaces in arid environments

In caves?  Really

Posted Image

You quote Wiki, I quote from several scientific articles.

Read all that, and then come back with a reply, please.

Another thing: if it was done chemically, then we still no have no idea how they applied the chemical brew to the stones. Did they wipe it on the surface, did they spray it, what? The adjoining quarry may have been effected too in the process.


#3431    zoser

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

Another refutation of 'Desert Varnish'

There is none to be found here and this is exposed:



Reason why it's not there:  it's not precision architecture.

Also at Cuzco the adjacent less accurate wall has no vitrification.  The precision wall does:

Posted Image

Posted Image


#3432    zoser

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 December 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

You quote Wiki, I quote from several scientific articles.

Read all that, and then come back with a reply, please.

Another thing: if it was done chemically, then we still no have no idea how they applied the chemical brew to the stones. Did they wipe it on the surface, did they spray it, what? The adjoining quarry may have been effected too in the process.

Abe, why do you think we are not using these exotic chemical methods today if they allow rock to be cut to great precision?  Don't you think it would be part of a builders tool kit instead of expensive power tools?

Posted Image


#3433    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

View Postzoser, on 29 December 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Abe, why do you think we are not using these exotic chemical methods today if they allow rock to be cut to great precision?  Don't you think it would be part of a builders tool kit instead of expensive power tools?

Why don't we use heat to give huge boulders a shine? Because it is impractical.

And in case of the chemical brew it may simply be too dangerous, but the Incas were not known to be too squeamish about things like that.


#3434    zoser

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:12 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 29 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

That's what I'm tryung to do, trying and failing it seems.
I'm trying to explore the suggestion that the precision cut rocks were actually cast into their precise shapes and how this may have been achieved.

It is difficult to come to terms with if one has always doubted the possibility of ancient high tech.  I would agree.

The evidence suggests that the edge of the blocks were somehow made semi-solid and that allowed a precision fit by the blocks pressing into each other almost to the point of fusing.  That explains the tiny 'lips' and ledges that are noticeable between the blocks in the Cuzco walls that shouldn't be there.

The blocks literally sunk into each other by maybe a few millimetres enough to get a perfect join.  Questions still remain.  How were the giant blocks put in place before they cooled?  What technology heated them like this?  Maybe there were many technologies?  Anti-gravity as postulated by Gamarra?  Lasers or sonic cutters as widely postulated?  This is only the beginning of the investigation.

Posted Image


#3435    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:13 PM

View Postzoser, on 29 December 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Another refutation of 'Desert Varnish'

There is none to be found here and this is exposed:



Reason why it's not there:  it's not precision architecture.

Also at Cuzco the adjacent less accurate wall has no vitrification.  The precision wall does:

Posted Image

I think I have said like 5 times now that the Incas used different styles and different techniques and accuracy for different kinds of buildings and structures of different importance.