120 replies to this topic

[me-wonders]

We hear of Aryans throughout history.  Hinduism of Vedic culture is Aryan.  Who are these people?  Where did they come from?   They are mixed into other cultures as well, and I would like to handle their influence on each culture separately, beginning with Hinduism.  

http://suite101.com/...influence-a8025

Argument against Aryans being responsible for Hinduism, stating the religion existed before they arrived.

http://suite101.com/...ization-a174848

Because this thread is sort of coming from the Ice age thread, which involves a question of aliens. it might be fun to speculate about if the ancient writing speaks of a nuclear war between aliens?  Then identify the area on earth where such a war could have occurred.  This should tickle your curiosity.

Quote

History's lost lesson: Ancient nuclear war among Indus Valley ...

theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/.../historys-lost-lesson-ancient-n...
Jul 20, 2011 – Another curious sign of an ancient nuclear war in India is a giant crater near Bombay (above). The nearly circular 2,154-metre-diameter Lonar ...

Edited by me-wonders, 17 November 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Harte]

Current thought is that Ayrans were not a distinct "people." Rather they were likely originally members of one of the tribes present in India back then, and the name came to be used as an identifier, eventually as an identifier of people who really follow the Hindu tradition, rather than those who just go through the motions.

That's the way the word is used in the Rig Veda, as well as the Ramayana and Mahabharata.

Aryan later came to represent a language group and in that context it is no longer generally used - being replaced by the term Indo-European.

Harte

[me-wonders]

Harte, on 18 November 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Current thought is that Ayrans were not a distinct "people." Rather they were likely originally members of one of the tribes present in India back then, and the name came to be used as an identifier, eventually as an identifier of people who really follow the Hindu tradition, rather than those who just go through the motions.

That's the way the word is used in the Rig Veda, as well as the Ramayana and Mahabharata.

Aryan later came to represent a language group and in that context it is no longer generally used - being replaced by the term Indo-European.

Harte

The link says the Aryans may have migrated from Russia during the ice age to Persia, then from Persia to India, and don't we know them as the Germans?  Like your explanation seems to leave a lot unsaid.  However, in your defense skimming through explanations of Aryans, many focus on the language and the Aryan India connection.  Then I came to this http://iranpoliticsc...aps01/index.htm




This goes with notions I have long held, but I could be wrong.

Edited by me-wonders, 18 November 2012 - 05:18 AM.

[kmt_sesh]

me-wonders, on 18 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

The link says the Aryans may have migrated from Russia during the ice age to Persia, then from Persia to India, and don't we know them as the Germans?  Like your explanation seems to leave a lot unsaid.

The term "Aryan" as an identifier long precedes its connotations with Germany. The two must not be confused. Strictly speaking it's an antiquated term: Harte is correct about the preferable and more accurate term Indo-European. I can't say it for a fact, but it may have been Nazi Germany's twisted concept of "Aryan" that led to its diminished used in proper historical studies.

[Abramelin]

kmt_sesh, on 18 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

The term "Aryan" as an identifier long precedes its connotations with Germany. The two must not be confused. Strictly speaking it's an antiquated term: Harte is correct about the preferable and more accurate term Indo-European. I can't say it for a fact, but it may have been Nazi Germany's twisted concept of "Aryan" that led to its diminished used in proper historical studies.

It started almost a century before the Nazis: http://en.wikipedia....hur_de_Gobineau

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 November 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

me-wonders, on 18 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

This goes with notions I have long held, but I could be wrong.

And as there is no definitive proof for or against, you could be correct. Though looking at your map, I would put the start point for your migration lines right on top of where the number 5 is. Seems like a nice place to me, there on the river Irtysh, very nice

And from Midgard the migrations begin

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 18 November 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[cormac mac airt]

kmt_sesh, on 18 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

The term "Aryan" as an identifier long precedes its connotations with Germany. The two must not be confused. Strictly speaking it's an antiquated term: Harte is correct about the preferable and more accurate term Indo-European. I can't say it for a fact, but it may have been Nazi Germany's twisted concept of "Aryan" that led to its diminished used in proper historical studies.

To add to this the Indo-European language family appears to have originated in Anatolia c.8000 - 9500 BP and the genetics involved in the distribution of peoples in India both show no "Aryan Invasion - c.1500 BC" as such and grossly predate any alleged involvement by same by at least several millenia.

http://www.sciencema...y=9/I0UU0.eTrdQ

http://www.ncbi.nlm....74/pdf/main.pdf

cormac

[me-wonders]

kmt_sesh, on 18 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

The term "Aryan" as an identifier long precedes its connotations with Germany. The two must not be confused. Strictly speaking it's an antiquated term: Harte is correct about the preferable and more accurate term Indo-European. I can't say it for a fact, but it may have been Nazi Germany's twisted concept of "Aryan" that led to its diminished used in proper historical studies.

I have a problem with this reluctance to use the word Aryan.  One reason begins with the explanations of history that involve the influence of Aryans who migrated to different areas.  What do we do, just ignore these accounts of history?

Aryan Christianity was more influenced by Egyptian cosmology than Roman Catholicism, and in Russian was Orthodox Christianity.  These different Christian belief systems, had consequences, and what happens if we just ignore this?   When we ignore cause and effect, life appears much more chaotic than it is.    We can not rule with reason, when we do not understand the reasoning.

[me-wonders]

There is gene research that does prove the Aryans did invade.   http://www.davidicke...read.php?t=5665

And wikipedia says  "Aryan /ˈɛərjən/ is an English language loanword derived from the Sanskrit ārya ('Noble').^[1][2][3] In present-day academia, the terms "Indo-Iranian" and "Indo-European" have, according to many, made most uses of the term 'Aryan' minimal, and 'Aryan' is now mostly limited to its appearance in the term "Indo-Aryan" for Indic languages and their speakers."

Putting together the gene research and the Sanskrit word for "noble", we have a story to tell.

More interesting to me is the possibility that Vedic literature tells of nuclear war, and the scientific evidence that this is possible.  But this is a whole different story from the one of the genetic and political consequences of an Aryan invasion.

Edited by me-wonders, 18 November 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

me-wonders, on 18 November 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

There is gene research that does prove the Aryans did invade.   http://www.davidicke...read.php?t=5665

And wikipedia says  "Aryan /ˈɛərjən/ is an English language loanword derived from the Sanskrit ārya ('Noble').^[1][2][3] In present-day academia, the terms "Indo-Iranian" and "Indo-European" have, according to many, made most uses of the term 'Aryan' minimal, and 'Aryan' is now mostly limited to its appearance in the term "Indo-Aryan" for Indic languages and their speakers."

Putting together the gene research and the Sanskrit word for "noble", we have a story to tell.

More interesting to me is the possibility that Vedic literature tells of nuclear war, and the scientific evidence that this is possible.  But this is a whole different story from the one of the genetic and political consequences of an Aryan invasion.

The only thing that that proves is you shouldn't be getting your outdated sources from a fringe site.

cormac

[me-wonders]

Actually I am coming from a lecture by a highly respected college professor, who explains the result of an Aryan invasion, but I can't copy and paste that lecture.  Given the great amount of controversy over Aryans, where they came from and which cultures they influenced, you might be a little more diplomatic when disagreeing with someone, and it would be helpful if you clarify what your disagreement is.

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  Indo-Aryan migration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  
  
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration Models of the Indo-Aryan migration discuss scenarios of prehistoric ..... to Central Asia, but not as far as the seats of the Medes, Persians or Indo-Aryans".
  
  History and political background - Linguistics - Archaeology - Genetic anthropology
  
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  Aryan Immigration | CAIS©
  
  
  www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Anthropology/aryans_immigration.htm The overwhelming majority of historical sources regard the people of present Persia (Iran) descendants of Aryans who are thought to have migrated from some ...
  
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  Fraud on Aryans
  
  
  aryanfraud.blogspot.com/ Nov 2, 2006 – Jews spend a lot of money to undermine and destroy the Aryan Migration theory in Iran and Afghanistan. They try to deny that Persians have ...
  
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  Images for Aryan migration to Persia
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  Parsa, Persia. Page 3. Pre- Achaemenian History, Parsua. c 1000 ...
  
  
  www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/achaemenian/index.htm Persian Entry Into Aryan/Iranian Group of Nations. Persians and Medes in Zoroastrian History. Persians and Medes as Aryans. Persians as Migrants. Lake Urmia ...
  
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  A History of Ancient India Before the Aryan Migration - Hinduism
  
  
  www.netplaces.com › Hinduism › Hinduism: History and Central Ideas A History of Ancient India Before the Aryan Migration by Kenneth Shouler, Ph.D. ... In ancient times, the Indus river was called the Sindhu, but the Persians who ...
  
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  The Coming of Aryans - History of India
  
  
  indiansaga.com/history/aryans.html From there they had migrated to the European countries. Two groups of Aryans are said to have come to Persia and India. The Aryans who had migrated to India ...
  
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  Indo-Aryan migration - Indic Studies Foundation
  
  
  www.indicstudies.us/Archives/.../Aryan%20Migration%20Theories.d... File Format: Microsoft Word - Quick View
  Sep 26, 2006 – "Indo-Aryan migration" refers to the theory that speakers of Indo-Aryan .... of Saka and Tocharian languages through the influence of Persians, ...

Edited by me-wonders, 18 November 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

1)  Of the 90 sources in your Wiki link the majority are over 10 years old and have been superceded by more current studies which show there was no "Aryan Invasion" into India.

2)  Is not evidence of any kind of 'invasion' as is most commonly presented. And in regards to originating north of Persia actually says:

Quote

On the basis of above facts, the theory of Aryan migration from north toward the present Persia and Asia Minor does not seem feasible. What is more probable is that Aryans are native people who lived on this land due to its most favorable living conditions since antiquity. This is supported by abundant traces of civilizations found while there is no trace of any similar settlements in any nearby places.

3)  Some anonymous persons blog isn't evidence of anything than their own personal belief.

4)  Nice pictures, but they don't prove the claim of Aryan Invasion.

5)  Has nothing to do with Aryan Invasions into India.

6)  1920's beliefs in "Pre" Indo-Aryans have no bearing on what we know now about the genetics of the people involved, which doesn't substantiate those earlier beliefs by any stretch of the imagination.

7)  With the exception of the first sentence most of this is meaningless and has been shown to be incorrect several times over.

8)  Links based solely on Wikipedia are of no real use to the discussion.

cormac

[me-wonders]

cormac mac airt, on 18 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

1)  Of the 90 sources in your Wiki link the majority are over 10 years old and have been superceded by more current studies which show there was no "Aryan Invasion" into India.

2)  Is not evidence of any kind of 'invasion' as is most commonly presented. And in regards to originating north of Persia actually says:



3)  Some anonymous persons blog isn't evidence of anything than their own personal belief.

4)  Nice pictures, but they don't prove the claim of Aryan Invasion.

5)  Has nothing to do with Aryan Invasions into India.

6)  1920's beliefs in "Pre" Indo-Aryans have no bearing on what we know now about the genetics of the people involved, which doesn't substantiate those earlier beliefs by any stretch of the imagination.

7)  With the exception of the first sentence most of this is meaningless and has been shown to be incorrect several times over.

8)  Links based solely on Wikipedia are of no real use to the discussion.

cormac

Okay trash this thread.   Obviously we are not going to fun with it.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Harte, on 18 November 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Current thought is that Ayrans were not a distinct "people." Rather they were likely originally members of one of the tribes present in India back then, and the name came to be used as an identifier, eventually as an identifier of people who really follow the Hindu tradition, rather than those who just go through the motions.

That's the way the word is used in the Rig Veda, as well as the Ramayana and Mahabharata.

Aryan later came to represent a language group and in that context it is no longer generally used - being replaced by the term Indo-European.

Harte

Indo Saraswat would be more appropriate then Indo-European.

[araxia]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 18 November 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

And as there is no definitive proof for or against, you could be correct. Though looking at your map, I would put the start point for your migration lines right on top of where the number 5 is. Seems like a nice place to me, there on the river Irtysh, very nice

And from Midgard the migrations begin

Are you saying that the Aryans are the Israelites? The migrating Chosen ones? Looks like they left Egypt (Babylon) for India to breathe... From the desert to The place of abundant waters..