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I am contemplating becoming a mason.


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#31    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:06 PM

View PostCoffey, on 18 November 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:






Firstly the Lodge I am talking about is in England. Completely different to the US. The Lodge my Step dad was part of is Scottish freemasons and they are different from the English and US ones.

I know all the info you posted.

My "accusations" are more than that they come from trustworthy sources and it's more than a little rumor.


Also there has been more than 1 case of Lodges being charged with pedophilia and necrophilia. I read at least 4 cases yesterday that went public while trying to find info on the lodge I was talking about. One of which is a famous case in Wales. Where a 4 year old buy said he witnessed them digging up graves and killing infants in rituals. Obviously he was sexually abused. They where taking children from a famous bernardos orphanage in wales.


So yes that kind of thing does happen. It's not a conspiracy, it's a sad fact.

I believe you Coffey. Because its unavoidable,and people like this use legitimate cover stories to carry out their objectives,all the time.
This is glaring obvious,if you just read the news.

Given masons are already allegedly cloaked in mystery and secrets,what better way to open a chapter that will be avoided by the mainstream ,even more so than most other organizations .
It's actually the perfect cover story .
I'm sure its probably not the only instance either .
How many decades did the Catholic church hide their ugly little secret ?
And like the church,there are legit ,hard working good people,and people who hide behind the facade.




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#32    Coffey

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:17 PM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 18 November 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

I believe you Coffey. Because its unavoidable,and people like this use legitimate cover stories to carry out their objectives,all the time.
This is glaring obvious,if you just read the news.

Given masons are already allegedly cloaked in mystery and secrets,what better way to open a chapter that will be avoided by the mainstream ,even more so than most other organizations .
It's actually the perfect cover story .
I'm sure its probably not the only instance either .
How many decades did the Catholic church hide their ugly little secret ?
And like the church,there are legit ,hard working good people,and people who hide behind the facade.


Yes exactly, it happens in all kinds of things where ther eis secrecy or some sort of cover.


I read a horirble one the other day about a pedophile ring in Florida getting taken down.

They had set up this house with over 40 adults and thye would use the itnernet etc and bait children to come. It was full of teachers, police officers and other people you would expect more from. There was even a veteran who served in Iraq or Afghanistan who claimed insanity aying he was haunted by "wierd things". It's disturbing how there cna be such large groups of people doing these things. If I ahve kids I'm going to be scared of letting them out the house or going on the internet. It's not hard to hate the human race most of the time but there has been some seriously revolting and disturbing things coming out over this year.

I will say I wish Jimmy Savile wasn't dead, I wish we could see his "empire" coming down around him. I would want to see him being sent down etc. But then would he be if he was alive? Would this be possible if he was alive? Seems like some people where either scared to speak while he was alive or payed off. Once the money stopped after his death did they speak up?

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#33    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:18 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 17 November 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I want to be apart of something that shares my passion for personal development, has people that i can look up to and aspire Towords....

Have you thought about scientology?

And why is this in the conspiracy section?


#34    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 18 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:



Have you thought about scientology?

And why is th
is in the conspiracy section?

Scientology ?

Errrr,why ,so he can learn how to give them all his money and preach some stuff made up by some sci fi author , to other people because he's now level 9.3 ,or some such nonsense .
It's an alleged religion ,MADE UP BY A SCIENCE FICTION AUTHOR .
If charles,Dickens had made up a religion ,I wonder if people would have followed it...
Duh .

Scientology is like a bad fungus ,growing all over everything . The masons are an ancient order with history rooted in antiquity .
No comparision .

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#35    bLu3 de 3n3rgy

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:47 PM

View PostCoffey, on 18 November 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

It's not hard to hate the human race most of the time but there has been some seriously revolting and disturbing things coming out over this year.
I will say I wish Jimmy Savile wasn't dead, I wish we could see his "empire" coming down around him. I would want to see him being sent down etc. But then would he be if he was alive? Would this be possible if he was alive? Seems like some people where either scared to speak while he was alive or payed off. Once the money stopped after his death did they speak up?

Yes this year seems to be carrying the theme for a lot of revolting and disturbing things being uncovered, that have been protected by so called secret organisations for decades. Pretty much the Jimmy savlile stuff goes back to the 50's. A whole 3 or 4 generations of crap under the carpet.  In Britain right now, it's almost as if the whole establishment and just about every agency has a finger in this pie, of either being involved or in not reporting knowledge of crimes/ or blocking the victims from proceeding. I don't think countries over seas quite realise the scale of this and how it's shaked British society, by the sheer scale of what is emerging.

It's weird now that he is dead and out of the way, how sources reporting on this are saying that the victims did report their assaults previously but were covered up,  and there was even a BBC documentary made in the 2000's sometime to out this, but it was shelved. Then all of those celebs who are saying everyone knew about it, it wa common knowledge in media/entertainment/ gov./ police circles but nothing happened or came of it. He was still alive then.

There is nothing bad to say about the regular masons who join for the fellowship and charity / community work etc. I think what people are weary of in general about any organisation that has and is built on secrecy, is the network if abused can see it self above and beyond everyone else. That's the only connection as far as I'm aware of reading in the news to Jimmy saville who was protected by his networks.

As for gaining the esoteric and mystic knowledge, and having to earn it thru degrees and ceremonies, there is nothing about that knowledge which makes it more important or special just because it is held in high secrecy. That point can be made for any religion or cult though.  Books smarts and degree smarts will never be the same as the eternal path of  knowledge and wisdom one gains from seeking within and experiencing within.  That is the annoying thing about any group actually, masons includ' who try to teach through the external and drip feed it,  rather than just be open 'in plain sight' and encourage the inner / higher self connection.

At the end of the day, it sounds like it depends what you want out of it. The community work and so on is always a good thing.

has anyone ever had experience  in leaving the masons, or a lodge ? How does that process go down ? As for Scientology, that is a total cult and pretty bad on the brainwashing scale, and interference level with the family and relationships is ridiculous.  Not to mention the horror stories about people who end up being messed with and stalked by them for leaving.

ETA - On the Jimmy Saville thing, there is supposed to be another documentary airing this week sometime.

Edited by bLu3 de 3n3rgy, 18 November 2012 - 11:49 PM.

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#36    Eldorado

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:53 PM

An uncomfortable truth: Most children who are abused know very well the person who is abusing them; i.e. fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins.

Edited by Eldorado, 18 November 2012 - 11:54 PM.


#37    Likely Guy

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:19 AM

In this thread I keep seeing Savile labelled as a freemason. He was a life long Catholic that received a papal knighthood. Catholics are not allowed to join the freemasons. Do you think that he would have been awarded a papal knighthood if the Vatican knew that he was a freemason?

No? Why, because it was a big secret that was kept from the Catholic Church? Yet not long after he died some anonymous blogger revealed (lied) that he was a freemason to further their own anti-mason stance. Now it's a well known fact that Savile was a freemason on sites like Stormfront, Above Top Secret and David Icke's site.


#38    Likely Guy

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:21 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 18 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Have you thought about scientology?

And why is this in the conspiracy section?

I agree, why is this in the conspiracy section?

Edit: Oh. "Conspiracies and Secret Socities"... so I guess that it is valid.

Edited by Likely Guy, 19 November 2012 - 12:31 AM.


#39    shadowsot

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:22 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 18 November 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

I'm curious of your comment Co-Masonry women are shunned..... are you including OES ?..since they do not claim to be a certain Mason Degree of the Lodge or participating in the seperate rites nor do they claim to be  Master Masons of Scottish Rite, York etc. In the states OES is embraced not shunned by the other Orders. You've only been in the Order for 15 years, some of the Heirarchy takes many more.
I'll but in for Traveling Man, and he'll probably correct me since it's been years since I've been involved but...

Co-Masonry is held as irregular by regular Freemasonry, since it violates the rule of Freemasonry being a Fraternity.
From an outsiders perspective like my own, both seem to recognize themselves as regular while the other is irregular. Eh.

OES on the other hand is an appendant body of regular Freemasonry meant for the wives or daughters or other relations of Blue Lodge Freemasonry. They don't join in with the rest of the ritual work but have their own things.

View PostHilander, on 18 November 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

If you are wanting to help your community why not do some volunteer work at your local hospital or charity.  I'm not a club joiner myself and will not take any oath that puts them before my family or country but I will volunteer my time.
This is not a part of Freemasonry.
I was very interested in joining myself when I was younger. I knew many Freemasons who were well versed in theology and occult stuff and it seemed like something I would enjoy.
However a requirement is that you believe in a god. As I came towards atheism, I realized I couldn't in good conscious join. There is various types that allow atheists and types that allow both men and women, but none that are anywhere near me.

However I still have a copy of Duncan's Ritual and Monitor (somewhere) and Morals and Dogma (on my shelf) given to me by one of my friends.

And again, I might be totally off on this. I'm several years off and my memory is terrible.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#40    White Unicorn

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:28 AM

View PostbLu3 de 3n3rgy, on 18 November 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

Yes this year seems to be carrying the theme for a lot of revolting and disturbing things being uncovered, that have been protected by so called secret organisations for decades. Pretty much the Jimmy savlile stuff goes back to the 50's. A whole 3 or 4 generations of crap under the carpet.  In Britain right now, it's almost as if the whole establishment and just about every agency has a finger in this pie, of either being involved or in not reporting knowledge of crimes/ or blocking the victims from proceeding. I don't think countries over seas quite realise the scale of this and how it's shaked British society, by the sheer scale of what is emerging.

It's weird now that he is dead and out of the way, how sources reporting on this are saying that the victims did report their assaults previously but were covered up,  and there was even a BBC documentary made in the 2000's sometime to out this, but it was shelved. Then all of those celebs who are saying everyone knew about it, it wa common knowledge in media/entertainment/ gov./ police circles but nothing happened or came of it. He was still alive then.

There is nothing bad to say about the regular masons who join for the fellowship and charity / community work etc. I think what people are weary of in general about any organisation that has and is built on secrecy, is the network if abused can see it self above and beyond everyone else. That's the only connection as far as I'm aware of reading in the news to Jimmy saville who was protected by his networks.

As for gaining the esoteric and mystic knowledge, and having to earn it thru degrees and ceremonies, there is nothing about that knowledge which makes it more important or special just because it is held in high secrecy. That point can be made for any religion or cult though.  Books smarts and degree smarts will never be the same as the eternal path of  knowledge and wisdom one gains from seeking within and experiencing within.  That is the annoying thing about any group actually, masons includ' who try to teach through the external and drip feed it,  rather than just be open 'in plain sight' and encourage the inner / higher self connection.

At the end of the day, it sounds like it depends what you want out of it. The community work and so on is always a good thing.

has anyone ever had experience  in leaving the masons, or a lodge ? How does that process go down ? As for Scientology, that is a total cult and pretty bad on the brainwashing scale, and interference level with the family and relationships is ridiculous.  Not to mention the horror stories about people who end up being messed with and stalked by them for leaving.

ETA - On the Jimmy Saville thing, there is supposed to be another documentary airing this week sometime.


Most who leave the order just don't pay the dues and get suspended from attending any lodge.  You can leave one chapter to go to another, no big deal.  I would say most people who leave just become less and less active but still pay their dues and still give to the charities and help when they can. Usually happens because of lack of time due to job or illness.

At the end of the day, it sounds like it depends what you want out of it. The community work and so on is always a good thing.

Although the Masonic main requirement is to believe in the One God of all and be of upright character.  It is a lot like joining a church in a way. Some church people just go to Sunday services, be active in mission work, or go the bible study, some become reverands, some do administrative work etc. It's all about doing yur part to make the world better.  There are inner and outer teachings in the mystical traditions. Degrees were created because it takes time to comprehend the teachings, symbology, and the memorizing. Secret society is mainly for the heirarchy in my opinion and was because of persecution like getting burnt at the stake by opposing political and religious leaders in power through out history.


#41    Eldorado

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:28 AM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 18 November 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:



Scientology ?

Errrr,why ,so he can learn how to give them all his money and preach some stuff made up by some sci fi author , to other people because he's now level 9.3 ,or some such nonsense .
It's an alleged religion ,MADE UP BY A SCIENCE FICTION AUTHOR .
If charles,Dickens had made up a religion ,I wonder if people would have followed it...
Duh .

Scientology is like a bad fungus ,growing all over everything . The masons are an ancient order with history rooted in antiquity .
No comparision .

Am thinking maybe Expand My Mind was being sarcastic.  :)


#42    Eldorado

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 19 November 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Most who leave the order just don't pay the dues and get suspended from attending any lodge.

Debt-suspended.  Grr.  (lol)


#43    shadowsot

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:42 AM

Quote

Degrees were created because it takes time to comprehend the teachings, symbology, and the memorizing.

Depends on the degree. The first three can be agreed to be derived from the levels of practicing Stone Masons, but others can be argued as just numbers to make people feel important. It's a close case for the Scottish Rite, where I understand depending on the lodge it can be a few days to a few weeks to work all of the required degrees save for the 33rd, though Memphis Mizraim comes to mind.

Quote

Most who leave the order just don't pay the dues and get suspended from attending any lodge.


I know one of my Freemason friends eventually also became an atheist and simply stepped down from his Lodge. Sure he was missed, but I don't think it was a big deal otherwise, though I lost contact with him.
I do have to say that one thing that drew me to Freemasonry in the first place was the general acceptance and tolerance of other faiths (dependent on their location of course. Southern Lodges tend to have some issues here in the US I understand.)
Even so, however, I did find that a large number of my old friends were rather dismissive towards me after I became an atheist for the same reasons I get from others. I dunno if he faced similar problems with his old friends.
I hope not, he was rather older than me and been involved with Freemasonry for a long time. One of the few actual 33rd SR I know.



Quote


Secret society is mainly for the heirarchy in my opinion and was because of persecution like getting burnt at the stake by opposing political and religious leaders in power through out history.


As I understand it, the main things kept secret are the grips and rituals. Otherwise Freemasons are fairly open. Even their rituals are open to public consumption. Even though I've misplaced my copy, Duncan's Ritual Guide is still available on several websites.
It was used at one point to be assured who was a brother and who wasn't, and that they had indeed reached the level they claimed.
Now however that's all part of the dues card.


I don't actually know of any being burnt at the stake, however. Freemasonry sprung up during the Englightenment, the church didn't have as much power, though they did excommunicate anyone who was a Freemason while being Catholic.

Now, for corruption among Freemasons... well yeah.
The most notorious example was P2.  A non-regular Lodge based in Italy.

Edited by ShadowSot, 19 November 2012 - 12:43 AM.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#44    notyalcmas93

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:42 AM

I agree with most of what blu3 says.. go ahead and call me a 'conspiracy' theorist. Its cool, ive been called worse. But the free masons are apart of something bigger and most of them dont have a clue. Do your research.. dig.. dig.. dig.. then dig some more.
Anyway, there is undoubtedly good people in the masons but those are usually the ones at the bottom of the 'totem pole' the people who run the free masons dont have the best intentions.. IMO. And i would hate to see someone like seeker join :/

Edited by notyalcmas93, 19 November 2012 - 12:43 AM.


#45    White Unicorn

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:44 AM

View PostEldorado, on 19 November 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

Debt-suspended.  Grr.  (lol)

Dues are small and you do have brothers and sisters who will help you when you are in a pinch :)

Edited by White Unicorn, 19 November 2012 - 12:54 AM.





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