71 replies to this topic

[ShadowSot]

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God definitely appeared to those who believed in him, but It's not like God appeared to the Pharaoh directly to demand the Israelite's be allowed to leave Egypt, for example.

No, he just hardened the Pharoahs heart to prevent him from releasing his people and sent plagues and gave Moses magical abilities.

[Rlyeh]

TheProphetMark, on 18 November 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Atheist would say 'God is God, if he wanted to communicate with us he could do so easily' but they never think to question why God doesn't work that way and now I think I know why he doesn't.

When I think of God, I think of God as somebody who doesn't want to make it too obvious to people that he is in fact 'real'. Why? Well, look at it this way. If he were to tell everybody on this planet that he is real that would completely defeat the purpose of his entire game so to speak.

What pray tell is his "game"? Cause wars, kill people, that kind of thing?

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Why? Because if everybody knows he is real, everybody would try to change the way they act so they could have eternal life with him. God doesn't want those who 'act' he wants those who are actually 'real decent people' to enter his kingdom.

According to the Bible "real decent people" don't enter heaven, only those good at kissing ass and yes men.

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It's like being a parent. Your child is bad, so you tell them if you be a good boy I will buy you a Xbox 360 next month so they act on their best behavior all month only to start acting up all over again straight after receiving their Xbox. I guess the analogy makes more sense.

An absent parent who demands worship.

[Rlyeh]

Wearer of Hats, on 18 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

I always think of it as the Unfathomable trying to communicate with the Incomprehending.
How hard is it for a fully grown human to have a conversation with a baby or a toddler? Think of it from the perspective of an omnipotent being and you've got the reason God speaks in metaphor, symbol and agents.

At least when I was a baby or toddler, my parents were present.

[Jinxdom]

I wouldn't reveal myself either if the majority of people who are supposedly my followers are bat **** crazy. Making assumptions for me on what I want. Then toss on the fact that he is super intelligent(according to some) that talking to us would be like talking to a brick while screaming save me save me stop all bad stuff from happening.

If there was an actual personified God I would suspect he/she/it is just sitting up somewhere face palming at us while thinking "well Jesus fing Christ they just don't get it."

[Amalthe]

ShadowSot, on 19 November 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

No, he just hardened the Pharoahs heart to prevent him from releasing his people and sent plagues and gave Moses magical abilities.

This is usual misconception about events in Egypt. And it is fair, because of verbal constructions of "humanizing" God, a thing people often used when writing about events in Bible. In essence, God did harden pharaohs heart, but it was pharaohs free will to become hardened. It is actually very simple to understand, after each miracle pharaoh had a chance to believe it was divine work, or refuse to believe. So at beginning, "cheap" miracles were performed, which could be repeated by Egypt sorcerers, so the pharaoh was not convinced. Yet with every next miracle, which he chose not to accept as divine, his will was tested, and each time he became more and more stubborn to accept which was obvious even to Egypt sorcerers, that the will of God was to release Hebrews. This was the process of hardening heart, but it doesn't mean god MADE pharaohs heart hard in advance.

And if you see it logically, it is common flaw in the minds of contemporary business, where bad decisions are being pushed through and through, even with clear understanding about bad decision, just because of fear to lose resources already poured into it.

Edited by Amalthe, 19 November 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Curious76]

God won't reveal himself to us because he doesn't have to. That's why he sent his son. I'm sure that when Jesus has enough friends on proverbial Facebook, he'll be back to invite us all to his inclusive party. There must be a relationship there though. Life is a multiple choice test. Choose correctly and you pass. First question… child of Gods' name: __________. At least that's what I like to believe.

[scowl]

Amalthe, on 19 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

This is usual misconception about events in Egypt. And it is fair, because of verbal constructions of "humanizing" God, a thing people often used when writing about events in Bible.

What is a "fair" misconception?

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In essence, God did harden pharaohs heart, but it was pharaohs free will to become hardened.

So the Pharaoh could have prevented God from doing something?

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This was the process of hardening heart, but it doesn't mean god MADE pharaohs heart hard in advance.

Except that the Bible says God hardened the Pharaoh's heart after every miracle which resulted in the deaths of thousands of Egyptian men, women and children. Furthermore Exodus 9:13-16 depicts a god that is screaming that He did these things because he wanted the people of the world to see what a kick-ass god He is:

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Then the Lord said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.'"

So there's a god that is not only not shy about revealing himself, he's feels it's necessary to kill thousands of people to show he's the number one god on this planet!

[Quaentum]

Amalthe, on 19 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

This is usual misconception about events in Egypt. And it is fair, because of verbal constructions of "humanizing" God, a thing people often used when writing about events in Bible. In essence, God did harden pharaohs heart, but it was pharaohs free will to become hardened. It is actually very simple to understand, after each miracle pharaoh had a chance to believe it was divine work, or refuse to believe. So at beginning, "cheap" miracles were performed, which could be repeated by Egypt sorcerers, so the pharaoh was not convinced. Yet with every next miracle, which he chose not to accept as divine, his will was tested, and each time he became more and more stubborn to accept which was obvious even to Egypt sorcerers, that the will of God was to release Hebrews. This was the process of hardening heart, but it doesn't mean god MADE pharaohs heart hard in advance.

And if you see it logically, it is common flaw in the minds of contemporary business, where bad decisions are being pushed through and through, even with clear understanding about bad decision, just because of fear to lose resources already poured into it.

The fact that it states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart not simply that Pharaoh's heart hardened shows direct intervention, not a choice of free will.

[Rlyeh]

Curious76, on 19 November 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

God won't reveal himself to us because he doesn't have to. That's why he sent his son. I'm sure that when Jesus has enough friends on proverbial Facebook, he'll be back to invite us all to his inclusive party. There must be a relationship there though. Life is a multiple choice test. Choose correctly and you pass. First question… child of Gods' name: __________. At least that's what I like to believe.

Then where is his son? Absent like his father.

[Seeker79]

Wearer of Hats, on 18 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

I always think of it as the Unfathomable trying to communicate with the Incomprehending.
How hard is it for a fully grown human to have a conversation with a baby or a toddler? Think of it from the perspective of an omnipotent being and you've got the reason God speaks in metaphor, symbol and agents.

This is very insiteful. It's how I have come to understand this aswell. Imagine a super computer trying to communicate with some of the first computers.  I believe God does reveal itself. The question was once asked.

" Why dosnt god simply shout down from the heavens in a loud voice about the nature of the universe?"

The answer is that that is exactly what it is doing, we are only just now deciphering what is said.

[Alienated Being]

Pupp3t, on 19 November 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

God wanted us to fix these problems by ourselves because He can't be in our business to begin with.

Ah, so a being whom is omniscient, ominpotent and omnipresent can not be in our business to begin with? That is a very interesting statement. Also, I should like to address the former statement, wherein you assert knowledge of the intentions of this divine being. How do you know what he wants? How do you know that he wanted us to fix our problems? This is a baseless assumption. A being from another planet looking at our religion(s) would more-than-likely view the gods of the religion as being quite malevolent and nihilistic. It does not make sense for a being to create something so beautiful, only to sit back and watch us rip each other apart, and destroy the planet that he created... That seems quite sadistic to me. One would logically assume that any caring, loving being would step in to prevent all of these malicious events from occurring (such as war).

Also, the bible contradicts your former statement. For a being that can not be in our business, it certainly did not have any issues with advocating the raping of small children, the murderning of small children (both instances found in Numbers), and the treatment of women as "property".

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The only thing I can say to the poor victims who die EVERY DAY is that now they no longer suffer the pain of this world.

Then why place us here to begin with, if he knew such pain would occur? I suppose the all-powerful god could not possibly know what we would do to one another.

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For those who work hard into the ground, yet receive no sign? Simple. It hasn't come to them yet. Either that, or He placed help nearby and we haven't taken notice of it.

Then perhaps he should be a little more obvious, as the bible explicitly states, "Ask and ye shall receive".

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Regardless, everyone deserves a chance in Heaven. Whether they believe in a God or not, as DarkWind said.

I would much rather be buried and feasted upon by meal worms than to be subjected to an eternity on a bunch of clouds.

[Mr Walker]

Darkwind, on 18 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

There are lot of "real decent people" out there who don't believe in god and a lot of real indecent people who do. I think the criteria is flawed. If you want to fill heaven with decent people shouldn't the criteria be they be decent people whether or not the believe in a god?

Perhaps it doesnt matter if they don't believe in god, as long as god believes in them.   Even in christian theology there will be a lot of people in heaven who never heard of the christian god, or had a chance to believe in him but were decent human beings. (eg those who lived before christ, or  never encountered a christian, or young children)  In christian theology god, like the egyptian gods, judges our heart and our mind.

[Mr Walker]

ranrod, on 18 November 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

Firstly, you're presupposing the god of Abraham being the 'real' one from the infinite choices and the infinite possible motives for that god or those gods to 'want' us to be a certain way.  Secondly, covered in a semi-recent thread, there is no way a god or gods could prove what they are.  Lastly, I still haven't heard where people get the notion of the god of Abraham being a forgiving loving God.  I presume you have never read the bible.  The god depicted in the OT is cruel, flawed, violent, spiteful, jealous, makes one mistake after another, and demands unspeakable evil from his people.

Thats a warped perception of the OT. In my reading, god acts from love; like a person cutting out a cancer to allow the body to survive, or destroying evil to allow good to triumph. And sometimes to protect the people with whom he had a special covenant. That is how the stories were written and meant to be read. Your interpretation comes from a culture, values and times, more than  4000 years removed from the time of the OT

[Amalthe]

scowl, on 19 November 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

What is a "fair" misconception?

Fair misconception is the one which is based on flawed or incomplete presentation of events in Bible. For instance look at Exodus 4:24. After God ordered Moses to deliver Hebrews from Egypt, something really, really strange happened on the way, it is written that God tried to kill Moses. I think only Moses will be able to explain one day what happened there.

scowl, on 19 November 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

So the Pharaoh could have prevented God from doing something?

God wanted Pharaoh to release Hebrews. That was his goal, and it would happen even after first or third miracle, if Pharaoh chose to do so. All other miracles wouldn't be used if Pharaoh was not so stubborn.

Quaentum, on 19 November 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

The fact that it states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart not simply that Pharaoh's heart hardened shows direct intervention, not a choice of free will.

Exactly what i was saying, it is written in Bible that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but it is not literally true. God presented choices to Pharaoh, and Pharaoh decisions hardened his heart, because of his pride and stubbornness.

Edited by Amalthe, 21 November 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[scowl]

Amalthe, on 21 November 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Exactly what i was saying, it is written in Bible that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but it is not literally true. God presented choices to Pharaoh, and Pharaoh decisions hardened his heart, because of his pride and stubbornness.

So what's written in the Bible is wrong, and what you say is what really happened.