Mars discovery "one for the history books"

[pokingjoker]

Its hard not to raise an eyebrow and wonder wtf. I mean the head of the team says omg all we know about mars will be rewritten then a bit later we get hey yeah forget all that we found nothing, sounds so much like ufo crashed in nevada then next day oops our bad just a weather ballon

[Space Commander Travis]

The Headline doesn't agree with what was actually said in the article. No *definitive* evidence of organics has been detected by Curiosity. If there were no evidence for them at all, why add the qualifier 'definitive'? Perhaps they did find organic compounds, but aren't certain of it yet. Definitive evidence seems quite like proof. Responsible scientists are not talking in terms of proof at this point. This is all about a single soil sample, and one team of scientists looking at some chemical test results. Many more samples, many more tests, and peer review lie between any potential discovery and scientific proof.

Anyway, never mind all that, if anyone had taken any notice of the story I posted above, they have discovered organics; on Mercury! Now whatever can we make of that?

Both ice and organic materials, which are similar to tar or coal, were believed to have been delivered millions of years ago by comets and asteroids crashing into the planet.

So wherever could they have come from?

[bison]

Life requires organic matter, but organic matter may exist without life. Complex organic molecules can point to life; coal, oil, and tar on Earth are the remains of livings things. Similar substances can be synthesized in space without life entering into the picture. The latter are presumably what ended up on Mercury. If I found complex organics and wanted to know if they came from life or not, I'd look to the carbon isotopes therein. Life preferentially uses the lighter isotope, carbon 12. If the sample was an even mixture of carbon 12 and carbon 13, or if carbon 13 predominated, I'd judge that life (at least as we know it) was absent. If carbon 12 were in the majority, life would seem likely. This is probably what they have been trying to do lately with the Curiosity rover on Mars.

[bison]

For anyone interested in hearing and seeing tomorrow's presentation at the American Geophysical Union meeting, on what the Curiosity rover has recently discovered on Mars, the following site will carry it live at 9 a.m. Pacific time, Noon Eastern time, 17 hours Universal time (GMT).: http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl

Edited December 2, 2012 by bison

[bison]

To sum up, ahead of tomorrow's press briefing: The official stand now seems to be that something 'interesting' and 'not insignificant' has been found by Curiosity. At the same time there is an effort to minimize the discovery, probably in a bid to avoid being stung by a premature announcement in case it doesn't turn out to be so remarkable, after all. This has happened to NASA several times.

I remain unconvinced by the claim that Dr. Grotzinger meant that the mission as a whole was 'one for the history books'. He clearly seemed to be talking specifically about the data from the analysis of the first soil sample. There is another very brief interview of him talking interestedly about odd, finely granular material that is not simply minerals, and how it could be further analyzed. This granular material might just turn out to be bacterial concretions, like very small versions of stromatolites found on Earth.

The remark that no definitive evidence of organic compounds have been found is a straw man, set up to be knocked down. It tells us nothing but the obvious; that tests on any single sample, scrutinized by one scientific team can not be definitive; that many more samples, tests, and peer review will be needed before something scientifically definitive is established.

On the chance that something as remarkable as life on another world has been found, I want to hear what is found, and what is known, even what is suspected, every step of the way. Proof will be longer in coming, if it comes, but will be well worth waiting for.

[Mr. Bergstrom]

bison, for me your take on things was very interesting. Just got a couple of questions,

" It tells us nothing but the obvious; that tests on any single sample, scrutinized by one scientific team can not be definitive; that many more samples, tests, and peer review will be needed before something scientifically definitive is established."

How long would this take do you think? I know that's like asking how long a piece of string is, but how long do you think that would take if it was the case of such a finding?

I can't for the press conference later today! Leaving work early to watch it About two weeks before Curiosity's landing I read an article on the BBC website, I've been fascinated by space in general since then. I had a passing interest in space before, but now I've become obsessed by its possibilities! I guess I've joined in at quite a promising time

[bison]

You're right about that piece of string, and I've never been very good at predicting the future. There are a lot of variables that could affect the pace of discovery. How clear is the evidence? Dr. Grotzinger's quick 'one for the history books' reaction seems to suggest something really striking, while the subsequent disclaimers by others in NASA make it seem rather less so. Did Dr. Grotzinger get carried away by his enthusiasm, or are the other NASA people being more cautious than necessary? We won't even to begin to have a sense of this for a couple of hours, yet.

I do have a sense that if life on Mars, past or present, seems a solid possibility, the process of examining, and if possible, confirming this will be expedited as much as possible within the limits of scientific procedures. I hope that this will be a matter of a few months, but there is no real certainty of this.

On an immediate, practical note, I'm concerned about the availability of today's press briefing. I think it very likely that interest will be extraordinarily high. Will the website carrying it become congested, and begin to refuse new connections? Other sites will be carrying the presentation, too. I recall reading that the Huffington Post will do so. Other news sites would probably be worth checking, too, if either of the above become unavailable.

[HawkLord]

Lets hope the organic compounds they found is something like yeast so that we can all have Martian Beer.

[thewonderman]

Is there going be news regarding this discovery today ?

[bison]

There was a press briefing from 9 to 10 a.m. Pacific time, 17:00 UT/ GMT, today. Dr. John Grotzinger and several of his colleagues spoke about ongoing operation of the Curiosity rover on Mars.

Dr. Grotzinger maintains that his 'one for the history books' remark refers to his relief, and satisfaction when the rover first successfully completed several tests with consistent results, showing that it was working as intended. I question his use of the expression 'one for the history books', without further explanation, and in a context intended for a lay audience.

It seems that simple organic compounds were detected, but it is not yet clear if these were brought along from Earth, or carried to Mars by meteorites, or if native to the planet, that they are connected with life processes. One of these, chloromethane, is sometimes produced by living organisms on Earth.

The Curiosity science team seems optimistic about future possibilities of finding a wider variety of organic compounds. They believe that other sites on Curiosity's itinerary are more promising in this regard. They discussed a series of steps that would be used to determine if any such compounds were connected to living things. Prominent among these was the examination of carbon isotope ratios, as was discussed in previous posts on this thread.

[Space Commander Travis]

So was that it, then, or haven't they actually said it yet?

Edited December 3, 2012 by 747400

[Waspie_Dwarf]

There was a press briefing from 9 to 10 a.m. Pacific time, 17:00 UT/ GMT, today.

I've posted NASA's article on this press briefing here: Curiosity Fully Analyzes First Soil Samples

[seeder]

Are we not on the cusp of finding out...exactly what...this is all about? What it 'really' means etc?

Edited December 3, 2012 by seeder

[+DieChecker]

From Waspie Dwarfs link:

Transformer Footprints!!! Small one from the looks of the prints...

Teasing!!!

Looks like dirt you might dig up in some places in Eastern Oregons high desert.

CheMin's examination of Rocknest samples found the composition is about half common volcanic minerals and half non-crystalline materials such as glass. SAM added information about ingredients present in much lower concentrations and about ratios of isotopes. Isotopes are different forms of the same element and can provide clues about environmental changes. The water seen by SAM does not mean the drift was wet. Water molecules bound to grains of sand or dust are not unusual, but the quantity seen was higher than anticipated.

SAM tentatively identified the oxygen and chlorine compound perchlorate. This is a reactive chemical previously found in arctic Martian soil by NASA's Phoenix Lander. Reactions with other chemicals heated in SAM formed chlorinated methane compounds -- one-carbon organics that were detected by the instrument. The chlorine is of Martian origin, but it is possible the carbon may be of Earth origin, carried by Curiosity and detected by SAM's high sensitivity design.

So, water, amorphous glass and carbon were all found, just as people speculated. But none of them is a smoking gun of anything in particular.

[DONTEATUS]

So what If you mix that all up with some Good Vodka ? Maybe then We Shall see the Martians come out of the Stone work`s !