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Jesus was born years earlier than thought

pope jesus dionysius exiguus

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#121    Jor-el

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:22 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 22 May 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Doesn`t that mean when Herod the great died  in 1 B.C Joseph, Mary  fled to Egypt, from the Massacre of the Innocents, but return to Bethlehem where Jesus was born, Achhelaus Herod did not rule there.


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The Division of Herod's Kingdom:

Tetrarchy (Judea) under Herod Archelaus,
Territory under Herod Antipas
Territory under Herod Philip II
Salome I (cities of Jabneh, Azotas, Phaesalis)
Roman province of Syria
Autonomous cities(Decapolis

This post is a little confusing, can you clarify what you mean by it? I don't get it.

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#122    docyabut2

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:15 PM

View PostJor-el, on 22 May 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Just a moment here, you are confusing things a bit. Archelaus did not do that, his father, Herod the Great did. The link you gave me is quite clear on this. You misread the text.

Josephus is both direct in his descriptions and at times extremely opaque as to the participants in this event. Herod is in Jericho at his death.[2] Just prior to his final trip to Jericho, he was deeply involved in a religious conflagration. Herod had placed a golden eagle over the Temple entrance which was perceived as most blasphemous.[3] The eagle is chopped down with axes. Two teachers and approximately 40 other youths are arrested for this act and immolated. Herod defends his works and offers an attack on his predecessors, the dynastic Hasmoneans.[4] Herod has killed all Male Lineal Successors of the Hasmoneans. It should be noted also that the Pharisees have long attacked the Hasmoneans as well, as having parentage from Greeks while under bondage. This racial slur is repeated by the Pharisees through the rule of Alexander Jannaeus and Queen Salome.[5]

With this explicit background given, Josephus begins an exposition of the days of Archelaus' reign before Passover of 4 BC.

http://en.wikipedia....Herod_Archelaus

While the text itself is written on the page belonging to Herod Archelaus, the paragraph in question is specifically about his father Herod the Great.


If Herod the Great gave that order to kill all linage just before his death in 1bc, would`nt Archelaus Herod his son have carried out that order in the three thousands deaths?  A momentous event took place at the end of the mourning for Herod that ended with the cancellation of Passover and the death of perhaps thousands, the figure of 3000 being given by Josephus.Joseph, Mary were afraid to go there to give birth to Jesus under the rule of Achhelaus.

Edited by docyabut2, 22 May 2013 - 10:22 PM.


#123    Paranoid Android

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:29 AM

View PostDoug1o29, on 16 May 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

At the Council of Nicea, the bishops couldn't agree on a birth date for Jesus.  To settle the issue, Constantine chose December 25th, Mythra's birthday.  Jesus' birthplace is also Mythra's birthplace.  Same story.

From Constantine's point of view, it didn't really matter when Jesus' birth was celebrated as long as Christians quit killing each other over the issue.  The issues the bishops couldn't agree on, Constantine settled by decree.  He used the power of the Roman state to force compliance, banishing two bishops who wouldn't concede.  It worked:  the council brought the warring factions together and restored peace.  But, to do it, the Kingdom of God was converted to Plato's Republic.  In return for unanimity and peace, Christianity sold its soul.
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Are you certain it was Constantine who chose December 25?  From my research the birthdate of Jesus was a non-issue for close to 500 years, whereas Constantine was active only 300 years after.  It was only later when it began to matter that people threw around several options before the Winter Solstice was eventually chosen.

Additionally, I think you are painting a more severe picture of the process at Nicaea than is warranted.  The bishops largely agreed on most doctrines.  On the issue of Jesus' divinity, when the vote was taken it eventually read 298-2 in favour of divinity, confirming what the vast majority of Christian churches already believed.  It is unfortunate that the two dissenting bishops were exiled for their vote, but this alone isn't proof that the State was forcing them to agree with a particular view.  Did a bishop write a letter lamenting that Constantine was forcing him to vote a particular way?  No (at least none that survive currently).

Incidentally, ten years after the two bishops were exiled, they were pardoned and allowed to return.  To my knowledge neither officially recanted their belief in the non-divinity of Jesus.

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#124    Paranoid Android

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:43 AM

View PostJor-el, on 20 May 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

I think only a few children were actually killed by Herods soldiers, and that is why it isn't even a footnote in history.
Considering the size, there were most likely less than 20 children in that age group.  Still a horrible event, but the number of kids killed was far less than the kids killed at Sandy Hook, to use a modern example of child slaughter.

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#125    docyabut2

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostJor-el, on 22 May 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

This post is a little confusing, can you clarify what you mean by it? I don't get it.

According to the map in the light green,  Achhelaus did not rule in Bethlehem

Edited by docyabut2, 23 May 2013 - 12:14 PM.


#126    docyabut2

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:51 PM

However Jorel, could it be that Herod in his last orders to kill all the males in the lineage, Achhelaus may have sent to Bethlehem to murder some children.I `m just trying to figure how the Bible story of Jesus`s birth was connected in some way to  death of 3,000 after Herod the great had died.Is there a reason why Achhelaus according to  Josephus  at Herod the Great `s death had 3,000 killed?

Edited by docyabut2, 23 May 2013 - 03:54 PM.





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