150 replies to this topic

[Lion6969]

Darkwind, on 23 November 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

People like to claim to know what their god is thinking and what he wants us to do and will point out whatever source they have such as Bible, Quran or other writings they think is form the hand of god. Isn't really ego to claim to know what are a god's intention is or which text is written by a god?

We can't know the mind of god only what he tells us about his demands, intentions, attributes etc. Scriptures are usually the source if what god has prescribed and demands etc, or men sent as prophets. Therefore the question arises which scripture is gods word, that's the journey of discovery, test them all of their claim.

Second way of knowing god so to speak in a limited sense is through philosophical and logical deductions. Combine them with science and scripture and you get a good picture.

But to know the mind of something infinite, all knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, all encompassing entity, is beyond our limited capacity. Hence why god would send his instructions via man, something recognisable and words (language) something that separates us from other life forms and the best way to preserve and spread knowledge is literature. If a book claims to be gods words, it will also carry his attributes, ie mistakeless, perfect, inimitable, etc etc etc.

[Lion6969]

Darkwind, on 23 November 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

But isn't that the point of most religions?  Love us self and others can come from reason, too. But there is a lot of other baggage with religions that have little to do with self  love and empathy. If it comes from a sacred book you believe is the word of god is that the word of a god, too? Oh dear, a conundrum.

Baggage is self induced by us! If you study religions of the world, they all carry similar themes, ie, love foe your neighbour what you love for yourself, worship only the one true god, don't use intermediaries or replace god with false gods, be humble and righteous, strive for piety as in the eyes of god we are only superior over a fellow human based on piety, nothing else, be good to your parents, family and kin, family the centre of society, dress moderately, most if not all religions prescribe a social duty of hijab on men and women, but the biggest over arching theme is always, worship one god alone!

To me that indicates a single author over time sending the same message again and again to us, for us to only manipulate and corrupt it over time, bit dig deep enough their all similar and come from the same source, the one true god.

[braveone2u]

Darkwind, on 23 November 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

If there is a god, can a human actually say they know his mind?  Even using a so called sacred text, has the question of its origins and intent of author.

Hi Darkwind,

My path tells me that a flesh and blood human being is not capable of knowing the mind of gawd. A person has to shed his or her "unique awareness" for that to happen (i.e. Nirvana), and it's only possible after physical death. Also, just because a person is in the spirit form doesn't mean that he or she is automatically going through the process of Nirvana. Death has, like life on the material plane of existence, different realms.

The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is a completely different story. Is the Holy Spirit gawd, Itself? That, I don't know; however, I know for a fact that the Holy Spirit is ever-present and helping everyone, regardless of religion, to enter Nirvana, in order for one to be free at last. "After Nirvana" or one-ness with gawd is the only true freedom -- but what price freedom! To merge with gawd, the "residue," which covers the gawd inside all of us, has to be stripped, melted, burned away, etc. There is only one gawd...in the end. On earth, we live in duality by definition since spirituality is about being in the now, not in the past, nor in a fictitious future; nevertheless, this gawd inside all of us is relatively dormant, even if it powers our body's movements and nature, itself. Just because you have this spark of gawd inside doesn't mean that I'm going to worship you -- same goes for nature. Besides, I don't worship God(?). I don't even pray to It, especially since IT's completely oblivious of this world.

Sacred texts? They're from the past. I follow spirituality and the Holy Spirit's guidance, right here and now. BTW, as I have mentioned before, the Holy Spirit is for everyone, not just Christianity. One doesn't even need a label. Sincerity is the key to connect, and physical guidance from a conduit or teacher/master or priest/priestess is always good to have since they have been ordained by power. It is certainly not by mistake. This power is the Holy Spirit. A person has to open to the Holy Spirit to set the wheel in motion, figuratively speaking.

Peace.

Paul

Edited by braveone2u, 23 November 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Darkwind, on 23 November 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

If there is a god, can a human actually say they know his mind?  Even using a so called sacred text, has the question of its origins and intent of author.

The question is interesting because even though it says "a god" which I think means any god, all answers here, including my own earlier, assume this god is the Christian god, and there are the usual pious statements that sometimes read as insults. I prefer the question, "can any human know the mind of a god". This, I think, brings the question to managable level. I say this because I think that whatever lies at heart of universe/multiverse, is too profound, too shrouded in mystery for us to really have any meaningful comprehension, in either a religious or scientific way. If you believe that there is a great mystery that we can never know, but that beings, gods if you will,  are between us and the great mystery, then we may be able too have better luck trying to imagine what is in their minds.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 23 November 2012 - 10:12 PM.

[libstaK]

Lion6969, on 23 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Baggage is self induced by us! If you study religions of the world, they all carry similar themes, ie, love foe your neighbour what you love for yourself, worship only the one true god, don't use intermediaries or replace god with false gods, be humble and righteous, strive for piety as in the eyes of god we are only superior over a fellow human based on piety, nothing else, be good to your parents, family and kin, family the centre of society, dress moderately, most if not all religions prescribe a social duty of hijab on men and women, but the biggest over arching theme is always, worship one god alone!

To me that indicates a single author over time sending the same message again and again to us, for us to only manipulate and corrupt it over time, bit dig deep enough their all similar and come from the same source, the one true god.

Bingo, we live in a world of entropy - everything passes, everything falls into decay, the spiral is always downward.  The messages get lost and corrupted throughout the ages so they are renewed and retold.

To me religions begin as bright sparks of epithanies from sincere seekers who only wanted to impart knowledge NOT dogma and then over time, the world and it's various postulations/machinations wants and desires latches onto them and has it's way with them so they inevitably, like everything else that is in the world fall into decay and the true message is lost in a miasma of human personalities and egos all wanting to make it their own message for their own egoic purposes.

I too believe the world is repeatedly receiving the same message throughout it's peoples - I find the best clues to God's intrinsic nature in the things all cultures hold in common and hold or held sacred in the past.  The message is the key, not the messenger - worshipping by following another into dogma is just blind ritual and cannot achieve anything for the individual, personal insight and seeking the wisdom in the works will do so much more.

I've repeated this quote a few times, I still like it - wish I could remember where it came from:

"You and I, we read the same Bible but where you read black I read white"

[Darkwind]

Lion6969, on 23 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Baggage is self induced by us! If you study religions of the world, they all carry similar themes, ie, love foe your neighbour what you love for yourself, worship only the one true god, don't use intermediaries or replace god with false gods, be humble and righteous, strive for piety as in the eyes of god we are only superior over a fellow human based on piety, nothing else, be good to your parents, family and kin, family the centre of society, dress moderately, most if not all religions prescribe a social duty of hijab on men and women, but the biggest over arching theme is always, worship one god alone!

To me that indicates a single author over time sending the same message again and again to us, for us to only manipulate and corrupt it over time, bit dig deep enough their all similar and come from the same source, the one true god.

I don't know about that,  Polytheism is a live and well. While I am a  Pantheist, for me gods are many aspects of the Universe each with a spirit of their own.  If you study Eastern religions you find may of them are very different in their point of view, from the western Abrahamic religions. I think the similarities (love, empathy and such) come in my way of reason.   So you can't really know which one is right.

braveone2u, on 23 November 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Hi Darkwind,

My path tells me that a flesh and blood human being is not capable of knowing the mind of gawd. A person has to shed his or her "unique awareness" for that to happen (i.e. Nirvana), and it's only possible after physical death. Also, just because a person is in the spirit form doesn't mean that he or she is automatically going through the process of Nirvana. Death has, like life on the material plane of existence, different realms.

The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is a completely different story. Is the Holy Spirit gawd, Itself? That, I don't know; however, I know for a fact that the Holy Spirit is ever-present and helping everyone, regardless of religion, to enter Nirvana, in order for one to be free at last. "After Nirvana" or one-ness with gawd is the only true freedom -- but what price freedom! To merge with gawd, the "residue," which covers the gawd inside all of us, has to be stripped, melted, burned away, etc. There is only one gawd...in the end. On earth, we live in duality by definition since spirituality is about being in the now, not in the past, nor in a fictitious future; nevertheless, this gawd inside all of us is relatively dormant, even if it powers our body's movements and nature, itself. Just because you have this spark of gawd inside doesn't mean that I'm going to worship you -- same goes for nature. Besides, I don't worship God(?). I don't even pray to It, especially since IT's completely oblivious of this world.

Sacred texts? They're from the past. I follow spirituality and the Holy Spirit's guidance, right here and now. BTW, as I have mentioned before, the Holy Spirit is for everyone, not just Christianity. One doesn't even need a label. Sincerity is the key to connect, and physical guidance from a conduit or teacher/master or priest/priestess is always good to have since they have been ordained by power. It is certainly not by mistake. This power is the Holy Spirit. A person has to open to the Holy Spirit to set the wheel in motion, figuratively speaking.

Peace.

Paul

I have a High Priest and Priestess, but they are not ordained by any other power other than themselves, IMO nobody is.  I respect them as learned but for the most part I am my own guru and they encourage it.

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 23 November 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

The question is interesting because even though it says "a god" which I think means any god, all answers here, including my own earlier, assume this god is the Christian god, and there are the usual pious statements that sometimes read as insults. I prefer the question, "can any human know the mind of a god". This, I think, brings the question to managable level. I say this because I think that whatever lies at heart of universe/multiverse, is too profound, too shrouded in mystery for us to really have any meaningful comprehension, in either a religious or scientific way. If you believe that there is a great mystery that we can never know, but that beings, gods if you will,  are between us and the great mystery, then we may be able too have better luck trying to imagine what is in their minds.

I meant in my question any god. When I talk about the  Christian god I call him the Abrahamic god.  I think someday we will figure out how it all works. It is our nature to seek answers for mysteries.  We might not understand the minds of the gods, but we might figure out what  is going on.

[libstaK]

Darkwind, on 24 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

I don't know about that,  Polytheism is a live and well. While I am a  Pantheist, for me gods are many aspects of the Universe each with a spirit of their own.  If you study Eastern religions you find may of them are very different in their point of view, from the western Abrahamic religions. I think the similarities (love, empathy and such) come in my way of reason.   So you can't really know which one is right

And Abramaic religions - have their Archangels, saints, powers, thrones, Jinn, demons etc - dig a little into the nature of each and compare with the nature of the various deities of other religions and you might be surprised at some of the similarities in the purpose of their existence.

Quote

I have a High Priest and Priestess, but they are not ordained by any other power other than themselves, IMO nobody is.  I respect them as learned but for the most part I am my own guru and they encourage it.

Popes are ordained amongst their own, layman preachers/pastors in many denominations make their own choice to practice and not by right or vote of others.

Quote

I meant in my question any god. When I talk about the  Christian god I call him the Abrahamic god.  I think someday we will figure out how it all works. It is our nature to seek answers for mysteries.  We might not understand the minds of the gods, but we might figure out what  is going on.

To figure out what is going on we need to consider all the evidence, whereever it presents itself, and it can be hidden in places our own prejudice would have us not look, given that prejudice is an artiface of ego, that's not really surprising - we should neither discount nor include anything until we know what inside us is attaching to the information presented in the first instance, just a thought.

Edited by libstaK, 24 November 2012 - 12:23 AM.

[Lion6969]

Darkwind

Great I know the eastern religions as well, from the esoteric beliefs to fundamental beliefs.

Although some eastern religions today are polytheistic, believe me when I tell you this, that's not how they started, nor do their own scriptures preach a pantheon of gods.

I think this example will suffice, Hinduism is the oldest religion we know, today's it's polytheistic, pantheistic, and panentheistic in some aspects. However the truth of the matter is within the scripture itself, the Vedas which are highly esteemed books in the religion, clearly say that, "god is one, there is no other, no, no, no", it also says that graven images or idols of god should be made. Now the question arises, if that's what the scripture preaches to Hindus, then why over 3000 gods? It's down to tribal conquests, agendas, and delegation of godly duties to demigods and manifestations of Brahman.

Check most of these if not all polytheistic faiths, they all preach one true god only worthy of worship!

[Beany]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 23 November 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

The question is interesting because even though it says "a god" which I think means any god, all answers here, including my own earlier, assume this god is the Christian god, and there are the usual pious statements that sometimes read as insults. I prefer the question, "can any human know the mind of a god". This, I think, brings the question to managable level. I say this because I think that whatever lies at heart of universe/multiverse, is too profound, too shrouded in mystery for us to really have any meaningful comprehension, in either a religious or scientific way. If you believe that there is a great mystery that we can never know, but that beings, gods if you will,  are between us and the great mystery, then we may be able too have better luck trying to imagine what is in their minds.

You know, I do believe in the profundity and mystery that we can never totally know. Which is OK with me. Sometimes it's all I can do to deal with the the small mysteries & the profound that come into my life almost daily. In my life, the divine is all around me and inside of me; maybe understanding how it works in our own lives will help us figure out, if we have a need to, how it works on a much larger scale. And when I use the word "divine" I don't mean that in a religious sense, I refer to that great all encompassing energy of which I am a small part of. I'm beginning to think the word is interchangeable with Mother Nature or the Universe.

[braveone2u]

Darkwind, on 24 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

I have a High Priest and Priestess, but they are not ordained by any other power other than themselves, IMO nobody is.  I respect them as learned but for the most part I am my own guru and they encourage it.

I hear you, Darkwind. Not all paths follow the Holy Spirit's directive. In my particular practice, there is that unearthly, mystical element, and yet a phenomenon for certain people in the group; nevertheless, the help is given equally, I believe.

Do you believe in divine beings, gods, goddesses, or 1 mother goddess? Or is your paganism strictly nature based? Actually, I don't know your path. Please share some of your beliefs and their concrete benefits. What do you like about being a pagan and following your religion? What have you learned about yourself? Have you fulfilled your earthly material desires? What does your girlfriend or wife or partner think about you as a "human being"?

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 24 November 2012 - 02:55 AM.

[SpiritWriter]

To begin to know the mind of God you spend time with God. Because of the "Spirit" -  the word of God (the bible in this case since this is what the posters question is about) is illumined. When reading the word of God in spirit, we interpret the meanings deep within ourselves. This is one of the way God talks to us. I believe that the bible is imparted by the divine and that there is a certain spirit at work that helps us understand it. I say this in no offense, and hope you will not be offended by it, the bible is written for the Christian. If you get nothing out of it, then it is not for you. I personally have gotten and continue to get revelation from it. It helps me in my spiritual walk. There have been times in my life that it meant absolutely nothing to me, there have been times that I hated it, but then there are times that it has helped me blossom and grow spiritually to a major degree and there is nothing I would trade in life for that. We will never know the "full" mind of God, but as Christians it is our desire to. The bible teaches us to "seek first the kingdom of God" and to "seek the face of God" these things are intrinsic to us, we search ourselves, we learn from others. In my understanding, all that has been created comes from the mouth of God, all things manifested are the living word of God. We can get revelation from much more than "the bible", the mind of god is eternal and everywhere, but we as an individual cannot handle all that. We only have our own minds, and as we try to be more like Christ, and only in humbleness and reverence to the divine do we begin to cultivate that. This same understanding is portrayed in other religions as well, its just that Christians have a specific book...

[SpiritWriter]

I shouldn't say that it is written only for the christian. There are actually many people who read it for the purpose of spiritual growth who do not ascribe to Christianity. But these spiritualists who do gain wisdom from the bible usually have understanding of Christ and of broad spiritual concepts that stretch beyond just religion...

[SpiritWriter]

as for Knowing the Mind Of God - that is the eternal search and continual growth toward holiness... Yes it is very possible to gain access to the very heart and mind of God. It is different for the individual, it is always evolving. It is a personal faith walk for the individual. For me, I can say God is with me all the time and my mind is the mind of God because he gives me all of my thoughts. I continue to get revelations through dreams, nature, human relations, reading (not only the bible, but yes also the bible), watching, learning, praying, etc...

[freetoroam]

Darkwind, on 23 November 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

If there is a god, can a human actually say they know his mind?  Even using a so called sacred text, has the question of its origins and intent of author.

I am glad you used the word "if".
There is a saying: You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
So "if" i could read this alledged gods mind, I would never tell anyone, I really would not want to live the rest of my life in a straight jacket.

[Beany]

Lion6969, on 24 November 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

Darkwind

Great I know the eastern religions as well, from the esoteric beliefs to fundamental beliefs.

Although some eastern religions today are polytheistic, believe me when I tell you this, that's not how they started, nor do their own scriptures preach a pantheon of gods.

I think this example will suffice, Hinduism is the oldest religion we know, today's it's polytheistic, pantheistic, and panentheistic in some aspects. However the truth of the matter is within the scripture itself, the Vedas which are highly esteemed books in the religion, clearly say that, "god is one, there is no other, no, no, no", it also says that graven images or idols of god should be made. Now the question arises, if that's what the scripture preaches to Hindus, then why over 3000 gods? It's down to tribal conquests, agendas, and delegation of godly duties to demigods and manifestations of Brahman.

Check most of these if not all polytheistic faiths, they all preach one true god only worthy of worship!

I'm not familiar with the vedas. Where it says "god is one, there is no other, no, no, no" does the context imply there is no other god, or just no other? Could it be interpreted to mean that there is no other in that we/everything is all part of god? I know there are a couple of people who could probably answer my question. As for religion, historically, if they want to be meet the spiritual needs of the current population wouldn't those institutions have to evolve along with other institutions? If our knowledge and understanding of geography, culture, history, family roles, psychology, medicine, science. etc continues to grow & change, then does religion need to evolve in order to be pertinent?