159 replies to this topic

[Left-Field]

Kazoo, on 24 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

You guys are mistaking different with intelligence.

How can you be so sure of who is and isn't doing that?

Kazoo, on 24 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

I meant many amazing and strange people. They probably had many similar problems. It does not make them gifted or intelligence.

I don't think anyone is implying that all people who suffer clinical depression or any other kind of mental illness must therefore be gifted and/or intelligent.

What is being said is that there are many great minds throughout the history of the world which belonged to people who suffered from serious bouts of depression or other mental disturbances.

I think it is also being suggested that those inclined to put deeper thought into things the "common" person does not consider are more likely to suffer from depression than the "average" individual. I believe studies on this have been done which indicate that to be true, but I would have to look into that more before I could state it definitively.

Kazoo, on 24 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

One who thinks deeper is no better then one who does not.

I don't think anyone in this conversation up to this point has claimed otherwise.

Kazoo, on 24 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Success and "gifted" are personal means and are impossible to discuss as everyone feels different about them. I meant many people are successful which I believe are stupid. In my mind may make them a failure in my own personal opinion. However they have money and live a good life. So to others they are a success.

One could say you are proud your daughter because she makes alot of money and lives a good life. You could be disappointed because she is a prostitute.

You can't...objectively  use these terms.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think anyone in this thread has equated one's success into possessing intelligence (although I may have overlooked a post that has done so).

[Cybele]

Left-Field, on 24 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

If you are referring to my earlier post then you have, indeed, misunderstood its intent.

I don't think of myself as superior (or inferior) to anyone. I do know that I am a much deeper thinker than the typical person, however. Those who are deep thinkers are more likely to gain better insight and deeper understanding of the things they contemplate than those who approach things in the manner you state in the quote below.

Ego and a feeling of superiority have nothing to do with. It simply falls along the same manner of thought which states a person who plays chess every day is far more likely to understand the game than a person who has played it only a handful of times throughout their life.

I believe I read your post and got insulted by its tone and the repeated quoted references to "common" and "simple" people; the way they are brainwashed into focusing on interests and beliefs that are not worthwhile or truthful.

Left-Field, on 24 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

In your first quote above you state:

"Sometimes people assume an air of superiority or giftedness to gratify their ego, to rationalize in their own minds why other people don't agree with all their ideas or accept them socially, etc."

Yet you then go on to state the following in the second quoted section:

"When I start getting worked up and depressed over existential issues, I realize that I have too much free-time on my hands and need to find something to keep myself busy. I don't think it's necessarily a sign of intelligence to worry about such things; perhaps of introversion and emotional lability."

Do you not realize that based on that statement it is you who is gratifying your own ego (by implying anyone who gets worked up and depressed over existential issues does so only as the result of having too much free-time on their hands), and rationalizing in your own mind how it is those who see things differently than yourself that have the "mental hiccups" (by suggesting that rather than being some sign of intellignece it is instead an introversion and emotional lability) rather than vice versa?

How am I gratifying my own ego by giving advice based on my limited personal experience? I never meant to suggest that all people who spend time pondering existential matters have too much free time on their hands. I offered something that helps me. It is not productive to ruminate and brood. If you think something needs changing, then do all you can to fix it.

Further, by saying that I too engage in similar behavior, I am pointing out that what I do as well is not necessarily a sign of intelligence. It can be a sign of emotional disturbances and mood disorders, or it can lead to such things. I don't consider it intelligent, in my case, to get stuck worrying about things. It is one reason why I consider myself introverted. I am talking about myself and personal experience when I say such things are counterproductive. What else can I reference, of course?

I think intelligence and giftedness are to be assessed by what you produce and what you are capable of, not your habits or tendencies, or even the topics of your thoughts and concerns (whether they are stereotypically intellectual or superficial). The most intelligent person I know is very action and goal oriented. He is constantly driven to achieve and does not spend time pondering philosophical issues or moral injustices. I do think getting too caught up worrying about such things can be counterproductive. This is just my experience.

Edited by Cybele, 24 November 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Cybele]

JGirl, on 24 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

i had never heard of existential depression before. i thought this sort of thought process happened with most people who are depressed.
i know that in my case i used to drive myself almost crazy with it - my brain never seemed to stop.

It seems that there is no such thing. It appears that the OP article misrepresented a psychoanalytic theory as a diagnosis. Existential psychoanalysis views inner conflict and depression as arising from existential issues in the same way that freudian psychoanalysis interpreted neuroses as arising from early childhood and sexual repression.

Edited by Cybele, 24 November 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Kazoo]

Quote

How can you be so sure of who is and isn't doing that?

Because I made 0 assumptions about such a thing. I may be doing it in my head. But you would have no idea.

(its really weird how your so quick to turn things back into people instead of dealing with the intintal concern)

Quote

I don't think anyone is implying that all people who suffer clinical depression or any other kind of mental illness must therefore be gifted and/or intelligent.

What is being said is that there are many great minds throughout the history of the world which belonged to people who suffered from serious bouts of depression or other mental disturbances.

I think it is also being suggested that those inclined to put deeper thought into things the "common" person does not consider are more likely to suffer from depression than the "average" individual. I believe studies on this have been done which indicate that to be true, but I would have to look into that more before I could state it definitively.

Who are you to separate a great-mind from me? Who is anyone to judge intelligence objectively? My point is you can't. I meant many people who I consider great minds you have never meant.  The people you consider great minds? They are only successful. They went down as history as a "great mind". You cannot objectively say they are. As "great" is an opinion. Making the entire subject of this thread subjective beyond belief.

Quote

I don't think anyone in this conversation up to this point has claimed otherwise.

Well I believe you would be wrong.

Quote

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think anyone in this thread has equated one's success into possessing intelligence (although I may have overlooked a post that has done so).

You just did by referring to great minds. They are successful minds who we were taught about. Not necessarily great.
.

Edited by Kazoo, 24 November 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[Paracelse]

JGirl, on 24 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

i had never heard of existential depression before. i thought this sort of thought process happened with most people who are depressed.
i know that in my case i used to drive myself almost crazy with it - my brain never seemed to stop.

You should read "L'Enfer" by Sartre,  Although it is a novel, Sartre was an existential philosopher before falling into the communo-maoist flawed perspective.  Another interesting book about it woudl be  "The Outsider" by Colin Wilson.  It was the author's first book, a very good study on Existential Depression.  A must read by those who would like to know what it is to be different.

[_Only]

Kazoo, on 24 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Success and "gifted" are personal means and are impossible to discuss as everyone feels different about them. I meant many people are successful which I believe are stupid. In my mind may make them a failure in my own personal opinion. However they have money and live a good life. So to others they are a success.

One could say you are proud your daughter because she makes alot of money and lives a good life. You could be disappointed because she is a prostitute.

Being gifted at something doesn't obligatorily demand success. It just means excelling at something. I could be a gifted nose picker, but it won't win me any awards or admiration, much as there are probably many gifted prostitutes around, who won't make anyone proud of them.

[Cassea]

I have a mensa level IQ (or used to) and always could quickly read and understand long comprehension passages.  But especially when it comes to spirituality and faith.  At 7 I was in a church with my priest with another person who left the church.  I was telling them about how there was a pattern of washing in the bible.  Cleansing of sins.  I spoke about how this was an way for God to help us to see the need for the sacrifice of Jesus.  The priest understood but the other person yelled at me for talking about the Bible that way.  She grew angry and wanted me to work on the handouts for class in Sunday School.  I was considered "disruptive" and couldn't focus.  I remember thinking as a child that it was so sad that we had to sit and color pictures and copy things.  I was told not to come back to class at one point because I would cry.  The woman was very aggressive and angry with me.  The priest wasn't.  I always wondered why the woman was so angry.

Edited by Cassea, 24 November 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[JGirl]

Cassea, on 24 November 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

I have a mensa level IQ (or used to) and always could quickly read and understand long comprehension passages.  But especially when it comes to spirituality and faith.  At 7 I was in a church with my priest with another person who left the church.  I was telling them about how there was a pattern of washing in the bible.  Cleansing of sins.  I spoke about how this was an way for God to help us to see the need for the sacrifice of Jesus.  The priest understood but the other person yelled at me for talking about the Bible that way.  She grew angry and wanted me to work on the handouts for class in Sunday School.  I was considered "disruptive" and couldn't focus.  I remember thinking as a child that it was so sad that we had to sit and color pictures and copy things.  I was told not to come back to class at one point because I would cry.  The woman was very aggressive and angry with me.  The priest wasn't.  I always wondered why the woman was so angry.

my guess is that she felt intimidated by you. it's very hard for some adults to accept that a child has insights that are seemingly beyond their comprehension.

[Paracelse]

Cassea, on 24 November 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

I have a mensa level IQ (or used to) and always could quickly read and understand long comprehension passages.  But especially when it comes to spirituality and faith.  At 7 I was in a church with my priest with another person who left the church.  I was telling them about how there was a pattern of washing in the bible.  Cleansing of sins.  I spoke about how this was an way for God to help us to see the need for the sacrifice of Jesus.  The priest understood but the other person yelled at me for talking about the Bible that way.  She grew angry and wanted me to work on the handouts for class in Sunday School.  I was considered "disruptive" and couldn't focus.  I remember thinking as a child that it was so sad that we had to sit and color pictures and copy things.  I was told not to come back to class at one point because I would cry.  The woman was very aggressive and angry with me.  The priest wasn't.  I always wondered why the woman was so angry.

JGirl, on 24 November 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

my guess is that she felt intimidated by you. it's very hard for some adults to accept that a child has insights that are seemingly beyond their comprehension.

Most people are afraid of one who doesn't perpetuate the status quo.  Indeed that women was angry as anyone else who would be forced to ask her/himself new questions to which answers would require thinking.

[AliveInDeath7]

I have never heard of this term, but I do relate to it. For the longest time I've been depressed and hated the world because I felt like I was too different to be related to. Some of the "abilities" I have, the things I've seen, and the experiences I've been through have placed me apart from humanity. I know I'm not alone in it but I have never met anyone that I could share these things with. Now, I just look at it and figure that there must be a reason for it.. and even if I'm alone in it I make myself feel better by remembering that I'd rather be this way than like everyone else. It is lonely and utterly frustrating at times, but i've learned to live with it.

[Cassea]

I'm still learning to live with it.  I posted this thread in case others felt alone as well.

[Cybele]

I don't think being different should necessarily be equated with being gifted. I don't consider myself intellectually "gifted"--I personally know only one person who might fit this label (a former Hertz fellowship candidate).

However, I do relate to not being able to relate to many, many people throughout life. Part of this is because my personality is not such that I'm outgoing or empathetic. My interests are diverse and some are so out there that I can only find people to share my thoughts with on certain things online.

[Cassea]

Cybele, on 25 November 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

I don't think being different should necessarily be equated with being gifted. I don't consider myself intellectually "gifted"--I personally know only one person who might fit this label (a former Hertz fellowship candidate).

However, I do relate to not being able to relate to many, many people throughout life. Part of this is because my personality is not such that I'm outgoing or empathetic. My interests are diverse and some are so out there that I can only find people to share my thoughts with on certain things online.

It is not to say that only gifted people experience existential depression.  It is to say that people who experience existential depression are gifted thinkers.  You are equivocating two different things.

[Jinxdom]

Damn that website for putting down those questions which of course made me think about them and start down that crappy thought path. Pretty much summed up my childhood pretty well though.

I could never get upset at what people thought of me or reacted to me. I could never take it to heart because people who get angry for stupid reasons just seems so foolish. Which usually results in me laughing while they are screaming and making them even angrier.
Only feel alone only when I'm not doing anything so I compensate by always doing stuff.
I tend to go more absurd the nihilistic . Silly is better then sad any day

I think the attitude from others comes mostly from jealousy and coming off as arrogant/smug by accident. My friends actually told me that they hated the way they could practice anything for weeks on end and I do it once and started off better then they are now at it while making it look easy almost to the point of showing off. I was even told because of that it is hard to be my friend. (My friends are brutally honest ) Even worse when you do it to people who are supposed to be the most knowledgeable or best at it in the room.  That has a tendency to shatter egos which I found gives you a long list of people who hate you for stupid reasons.

Oh and try to talk about what people say and what you've done regardless of how you say it since it all comes off as narcissistic when your really not trying to be, which I'll admit is depressing.............. and really silly.

[Cassea]

Your post is spot on.  You can even see in this thread the sort of hostility against admitting that you are a gifted thinker.  As if we must hide it away and be ashamed.  And I'm more open here than I have ever been in my life.  I rarely get the opportunity to discuss.  My therapist also asked me to consider my passive reaction to violence.  And it's  weird martyrdom issue.  You believe you deserve to be abused because you are so used to it from others.