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'Reasonable force' or 'murder'?

burglars shot reasonable force murder

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127 replies to this topic

#91    Toadie

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

I wonder did the teenagers really rob his house or where they lured into his house


#92    Rafterman

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:47 PM

View Postvoidla, on 29 November 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

"Fearful of other recent break-ins, he shot Schaeffel when he came into view.
When the teenager tumbled down the stars, Smith shot him in the face as he lay on the floor, looking up.
'I want him dead,' the complaint quoted Smith as telling an investigator.
He dragged the body into his workshop and then sat in the chair, the complaint said. When Kifer began walking down the stairs, he shot her and she fell down the stairs.
He tried to shoot her again with his rifle, but the gun jammed and Kifer laughed at him, the complaint noted.
'If you're trying to shoot somebody and they laugh at you, you go again,' Smith, 64, told investigators, according to a criminal complaint filed Monday.
He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'."

How the **** is it justified to shoot someone in the face after you've already rendered them incapable of movement?
How is it justified to sit a someone next to their dead relative, shoot her so she gasps for air, then shoot her again so she is murdered?

No where does he say he asked what they wanted.


He shot them as soon as he saw them. No questions asked. They didn't harm him, they didn't steal anything.
We only have speculation they may have broken in other times, we have no proof at all they did except this one time.
There is no justification in how far he went.


I agree with everything you're saying except the bolded part.

In my book, simply breaking into someone's home is justification for deadly force.  If you have such a wanton disregard for someone's personal property and their individual rights, you're criminally insane and I'm frankly not going to take the chance that you're simply there to steal my X-Box.

Edited by Rafterman, 29 November 2012 - 05:48 PM.

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#93    F3SS

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:53 PM

View PostToadie, on 29 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

I wonder did the teenagers really rob his house or where they lured into his house
I think they did rob the house before and they were there to rob it again but I think there's a good chance the guy set them up by making it look like he wasnt home. I guess you could call it luring. I suspect this was premeditated.
I know we're all speculating but I'm just trying to make sense out of a senseless scenario.

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#94    rashore

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:35 PM

Got a couple links that give some more information about this case...

http://seemydeath.co...l#axzz2DdU5Z6wb
http://minnesota.pub...rrorists-spies/
http://brainerddispa...other-break-ins

Not sure if it's really useful information, but I found it interesting. It struck me as odd that Mr. Smith was a retired security engineer for the state department and didn't have better home security.


#95    QuiteContrary

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

View PostRafterman, on 29 November 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Ricochets are unlikely, but what is likely is that your round will travel through the wall and into other areas of the house.  Which is exactly why hollow point rounds or shotguns are preferable for home defense.

I agree you've got to know what lies beyond when shooting any firearm. Firing a weapon is not a decision to take haphazardly. Hopefully you've thought this decision (to own a gun for self-defense) thoroughly. You are informed, and know your weapon, and you don't let it gather rust while waiting for that moment you need it.
Not sure how many households rely on shotguns as opposed to a handgun. There are pros/cons to both.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 29 November 2012 - 07:05 PM.

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#96    Myles

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostToadie, on 29 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

I wonder did the teenagers really rob his house or where they lured into his house
This is a valid question.   The old man does not come off as being a stable guy.   It is possible that he was never robbed in the first place and lured in a couple innocents.   Or invited them over.
It's too strange at this point to rule anything out.
But one thing is for sure, if his confession is true, he should be found guilty of murder.
Dipshts like this give gun owners a bad name.


#97    ouija ouija

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:57 PM

Just a hunch, but I think that when this gets to court Smith is going to be treated leniently ...... with sympathy.

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#98    DieChecker

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:13 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 29 November 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Could she have been high on drugs though? :unsure2: That could explain the laughing...
Maybe it was ironic laughter. Like if you are being beaten up and the thug beating you slips in a puddle and falls down. You just laugh. It is automatic.

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#99    Rafterman

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:48 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 29 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I think they did rob the house before and they were there to rob it again but I think there's a good chance the guy set them up by making it look like he wasnt home. I guess you could call it luring. I suspect this was premeditated.
I know we're all speculating but I'm just trying to make sense out of a senseless scenario.

Let's see, I'm at work, my wife is in class, and my kids are in daycare right now.

Am I trying to lure someone into breaking into my house?  Should I have life-sized cutouts of us made and stand them in the windows?

Don't really see how you "lure" someone into breaking into your house.

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#100    Wyrdlight

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:12 PM

The first shot, that dropped the guy comming down the stairs was understandandable, as was the shot that dropped the girl initially. Repeatedly shooting her in the chest then purposfully blowing the back of her head off as well and executing the possibly already fatally wounded man was way too far.

I mean, you shot somone, they have fallen downa  flight of stairs, if you can aim well enough to hit em, you can see well enough whether they are armed or not.


#101    Insaniac

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 30 November 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

Maybe it was ironic laughter. Like if you are being beaten up and the thug beating you slips in a puddle and falls down. You just laugh. It is automatic.

Indeed, or sometimes I think laughing can become a coping mechanism for shock in situations such as this.

Guess only Mr. Smith knows for sure, but can we trust him to tell the truth?

As far as I'm concerned, you break into my property, you violate my personal safety and pay the necessary consequences.

"He is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened their heart against Him, and succeeded"? ~ Job 9:4

#102    Wyrdlight

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostInsaniac, on 30 November 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

Indeed, or sometimes I think laughing can become a coping mechanism for shock in situations such as this.

Guess only Mr. Smith knows for sure, but can we trust him to tell the truth?

As far as I'm concerned, you break into my property, you violate my personal safety and pay the necessary consequences.

The thing is, if they are on the floor, bleeding to death and are unarmed, they are not a threat to your saftey. So planting your gun under their chin and blowing thier head off, is not a reasonable use of force.  I agree that shooting them initially inf ear for your saftey etc is entirely reasonable, i would have no qualms about doing such a thing.  But executing them when thier prostate on the floor is murder, plain and simple.

Breaking into somones house carries the risk of death at the hands of the home owner but the price of breaking in is NOT death, therefore killing somone when they are not a threat should not be within the bounds of the law.


#103    smokedog

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostGrey14, on 26 November 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

So you going to put a bullet in a young womans head if she is lying on the ground after you have already shot her several times and is no longer a threat? I am not defending what they did and I am not saying he did not have the right to shoot them intially. But something changes when you you go out of your way to make sure someone is dead, which is what this guy did.

8 times people broke into this man's house. once is enough for me. someone breaks into my place u better believe i'm unloading a clip in them. i feel bad for their famiies but these weren't "good kids" they were criminals. who knows what they would've done to the old man had he not done what he did. now that being said he shoulda called the cops as soon as the threat was neutrilized and not hide the bodies. if he goes down for anything it should be that and that alone.


#104    through the fire

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:09 PM

View Postsmokedog, on 30 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:



8 times people broke into this man's house. once is enough for me. someone breaks into my place u better believe i'm unloading a clip in

them. i feel bad for their famiies but these weren't "good kids" they were criminals. who knows what they would've done to the old man had he not done what he did. now that being said he shoulda called the cops as soon as the threat was neutrilized and not hide the bodies. if he goes down for anything it should be that and

that alone.

Perfectly summed up there.
He did nothing wrong, although his mental state should be checked out. If there was any real justice he would not even be charged.


#105    ouija ouija

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:12 PM

I'd just like to repeat at this point: Smith didn't know how many people had broken into his home. For all he knew there could have been a whole gang of them and some of those others could have been armed. I don't think some posters here are fully understanding the state you would be in if you were outnumbered by people invading your home ...... perhaps killing rather than just injuring the cousins was done because he wanted to be absolutely sure they were helpless if he had to deal with even more.

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