51 replies to this topic

[The New Richard Nixon]

Hasina, on 27 November 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Jeepers creepers, Nix, even if he had won, he still wouldn't be in office, not till Feburary I believe.

meh.but still if he was

[WHO U KIDDIN]

Graph Suggests Iran Working on Bomb

Does the graph look something like this:

 Netanyahubomb.jpg   202.36K   5 downloads

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 27 November 2012 - 10:16 PM.

[and then]

I think it's been a foregone conclusion for at least 2 years that they are rushing as fast as they can toward a bomb.  Considering  the moves in both Israel and Washington I'd say they will have their bomb.  I don't really understand why it comes as a shock at this point to anyone.  Interesting times indeed.

[CuriousGreek]

Cataclysmic faith, on 27 November 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

This sure is worrying indeed, fort north Korea and now Iran? This could generate a chain reaction of wars throughout the world and start a new world war eventually, cross your fingers and hope this doesn't happen

If a war begins soon, then we're in big trouble....

[and then]

According to the playbook the wars begin in the M.E.  Not sure when they happen but eventually they WILL be global and the death toll will be over a billion souls. That reflects casualties from warfare, starvation and disease that follows the war.  So obviously it will have to be a large nuclear exchange.  THEN people will be begging for someone, anyone to bring peace to save those who remain.  Enter the Sandman (so to speak)

[WHO U KIDDIN]

With recent American elections out of the way, Gaza's Hamas neutralized, Syria disintegration into pieces, and Egypt renewed political upheaval, it was just a matter of time before the war drums began beating loudly once again for Iran .

It appears that the recent month long absent from the media on the subject of Iran's 'bomb' due to world's preoccupation with the latest Gaza crisis demanded that it be returned to center stage with all its usual hype, of course we must be constantly reminded of the 'danger' that Iran presents.

Some months ago Meir Dagan, former Mossad chief said that attacking Iran is "the stupidest thing I ever heard."

Yet the persistent chant of 'let's bomb Iran' relentlessly continues to be repeated by American neo-con and Israeli Zionist pundits and it appears likely that a conflict between Iran and Israel may be a sure bet sometime between now and the approaching summer of 2013.

So why must this war be?

Why would current Israeli leaders subject their citizens to possible annihilation from Iran's sophisticated ballistic missiles?

They must realize that these weapons are not Saddam's Scud duds nor Palestinian 'home made' rockets or even Far-5s, these weapons have guidance systems they hit what they target. The recent Iron Dome's demonstrated effectiveness of about 40% of all incoming ordinance during the latest Gaza conflict will not insure protection for the Israeli citizenry from the onslaught of thousands of Iranian missiles which will probably come accompanied by thousands of Hezbollah's rockets.

Why should the USA and the UK plunge into another costly Middle East confrontation?

One which can easily mean ten's of thousands of our young  servicemen/women dead, and definitely the end to all prospects of our global economy ever recovering as oil prices go over $200 a barrel.

Why so much death and economic havoc to stop the 'perceived threat' of Iran developing nuclear weaponry?

Even if Iran had 100 nukes by Friday of this week would that mean that they would immediately start WW III on Saturday with either Israel or the US? That way in their rush to meet Allah the Iranians can get the jump on us on our burning path to Armageddon? Even the Iranian Mullahs know the truth, that there is no escaping MAD, no Allah,Yahweh, or God can help our species if we decide to launch a nuclear war.

If Americans and Europeans would have thought like this in the 40's and 50's, then the world would have gone to hell back then when both the old USSR and Red China first developed their nuclear weapons capabilities.

In a recent interview with theRealNews.com Zbigniew Brzezinski said:
“Why must we act like crazies in dealing with Iran?”

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 28 November 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[and then]

"If Americans and Europeans would have thought like this in the 40's and 50's, then the world would have gone to hell back then when both the old USSR and Red China first developed their nuclear weapons capabilities"    
Discounting the religious insanity of the Iranian twelvers is a mistake, IMO.  Russia and China were Atheistic powers and as such had a sane approach to projecting power with their nukes.  Religious fanatics don't have as much in the way of restraint in a critical situation.  I agree that the mullahs are probably, at the heart, power hungry cowards who will happily talk others into suicide but flee from personal harm.  The problem though is that there are very many in Hamas, Hizballah and the Palestinian crowd in general who are TRUE BELIEVERS.  Once Iran has their nuke - and I firmly believe it just to be a matter of time regardless what Israel or the US does now -  those true believers will feel emboldened to push Israel and feel they are untouchable.  Israel has shown timidity in this last exchange and they will pay a price for that in the next round.  Eventually one of these proxies will push too hard and Israel will begin another round like what we saw a few days ago but THAT time Iran will not sit idly by, they will begin to flex their nuclear muscles.  Threats, counter threats and hair trigger alerts will follow.  The politics of all this, as well as "rights" to possess such weapons will suddenly be forgotten as the world body tries to cool the flames before they fall into the abyss.  An Iranian and eventually probably Egyptian and Saudi bomb will destabilize the area to a point that makes nuclear war almost inescapable.  And the UN and particularly the West seems powerless to stop it now.Arguing about who was right or wrong in the aftermath will be pointless but I bet it still happens.  

[jugoso]

and then, on 27 November 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

According to the playbook the wars begin in the M.E.  Not sure when they happen but eventually they WILL be global and the death toll will be over a billion souls. That reflects casualties from warfare, starvation and disease that follows the war.  So obviously it will have to be a large nuclear exchange.  THEN people will be begging for someone, anyone to bring peace to save those who remain.  Enter the Sandman (so to speak)

and then, on 28 November 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

"If Americans and Europeans would have thought like this in the 40's and 50's, then the world would have gone to hell back then when both the old USSR and Red China first developed their nuclear weapons capabilities"
Discounting the religious insanity of the Iranian twelvers is a mistake, IMO.  Russia and China were Atheistic powers and as such had a sane approach to projecting power with their nukes.  Religious fanatics don't have as much in the way of restraint in a critical situation.  I agree that the mullahs are probably, at the heart, power hungry cowards who will happily talk others into suicide but flee from personal harm.  The problem though is that there are very many in Hamas, Hizballah and the Palestinian crowd in general who are TRUE BELIEVERS.  Once Iran has their nuke - and I firmly believe it just to be a matter of time regardless what Israel or the US does now -  those true believers will feel emboldened to push Israel and feel they are untouchable.  Israel has shown timidity in this last exchange and they will pay a price for that in the next round.  Eventually one of these proxies will push too hard and Israel will begin another round like what we saw a few days ago but THAT time Iran will not sit idly by, they will begin to flex their nuclear muscles.  Threats, counter threats and hair trigger alerts will follow.  The politics of all this, as well as "rights" to possess such weapons will suddenly be forgotten as the world body tries to cool the flames before they fall into the abyss.  An Iranian and eventually probably Egyptian and Saudi bomb will destabilize the area to a point that makes nuclear war almost inescapable.  And the UN and particularly the West seems powerless to stop it now.Arguing about who was right or wrong in the aftermath will be pointless but I bet it still happens.  

What, not enough civilian casualties for you And Then?? It´s one-sided as always:

http://www.economist..._ec/gaza_abacus

The question on many people lips is; ‘When is the Israel government going to stop this bombing and continual warfare and threat of war against the Palestinians, and its neighbours, and admit that there will be no military solution to the Palestinian Occupation, and begin to talk seriously with their enemies in order to solve these problems, for the sake of Israelis, the Palestinians, the Middle East and indeed the whole world?!”
I hope that you don´t think for a second that if there is a major war, current and past  Israeli policy and actions  towards their neighbours and the American support of it is not one of the major causes.

"the overarching fact of this conflict is that the Palestinians, for decades now, have been brutally occupied, blockaded, humiliated, deprived of the most basic human rights of statehood and autonomy though the continuous application of brute, lawless force"
For years now, US financial, military and diplomatic support of Israel has been the central enabling force driving this endless conflict. The bombs Israel drops on Gazans, and the planes they use to drop them, and the weapons they use to occupy the West Bank and protect settlements are paid for, in substantial part, by the US taxpayer, and those actions are shielded from recrimination by the UN veto power
aggressively wielded in Israel's favor by the US government.

http://www.guardian....gaza-us-support

[and then]

jugoso, on 28 November 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

What, not enough civilian casualties for you And Then?? It´s one-sided as always:

http://www.economist..._ec/gaza_abacus

The question on many people lips is; ‘When is the Israel government going to stop this bombing and continual warfare and threat of war against the Palestinians, and its neighbours, and admit that there will be no military solution to the Palestinian Occupation, and begin to talk seriously with their enemies in order to solve these problems, for the sake of Israelis, the Palestinians, the Middle East and indeed the whole world?!”
I hope that you don´t think for a second that if there is a major war, current and past  Israeli policy and actions  towards their neighbours and the American support of it is not one of the major causes.

"the overarching fact of this conflict is that the Palestinians, for decades now, have been brutally occupied, blockaded, humiliated, deprived of the most basic human rights of statehood and autonomy though the continuous application of brute, lawless force"
For years now, US financial, military and diplomatic support of Israel has been the central enabling force driving this endless conflict. The bombs Israel drops on Gazans, and the planes they use to drop them, and the weapons they use to occupy the West Bank and protect settlements are paid for, in substantial part, by the US taxpayer, and those actions are shielded from recrimination by the UN veto power
aggressively wielded in Israel's favor by the US government.

http://www.guardian....gaza-us-support

I expect they would be forced to stop as soon as the Palestinians recognize their right to exist.  The Palestinians want all the land, Jug, they make no secret of this.  It is therefore an impossible situation since Israel sort of likes being a nation.  Israel is reduced by this situation to cleaning up the mess every few years so that their people don't have to live in fear from random rockets.  Choosing sides in this conflict is fine, Jug, but it's dishonest to act as though you aren't.  The truth is that you and most others here on UM would gladly see Israel either gone or suppressed to the point of dhimmitude - 3rd class citizens in their own land.  It's just never going to happen.

[jugoso]

and then, on 28 November 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

I expect they would be forced to stop as soon as the Palestinians recognize their right to exist.  The Palestinians want all the land, Jug, they make no secret of this.  It is therefore an impossible situation since Israel sort of likes being a nation.  Israel is reduced by this situation to cleaning up the mess every few years so that their people don't have to live in fear from random rockets.  Choosing sides in this conflict is fine, Jug, but it's dishonest to act as though you aren't.  The truth is that you and most others here on UM would gladly see Israel either gone or suppressed to the point of dhimmitude - 3rd class citizens in their own land.  It's just never going to happen.

And Then, I have grown up my whole life with this conflict playing out. I´m neither Jewish nor Palestinian. My feelings around the issues are summed up quite nicely by Charles Pierce and I suspect that many others feel the same way:

The crux: "I would like to have an opinion on this continual bloodletting that didn't sound banal but, goddammit, I'm out of them. I am thoroughly sick of both sides here." One encounters a version of this mentality with increasing frequency each day that the violence escalates.

This temptation is genuinely understandable. Few things are more depressing than paying attention to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The carnage and mutual hatred seem infinite. The arguments are so repetitive and fruitless. As is true in all wars, including those depicted in pleasing good-vs-evil terms, atrocities end up being committed by all sides, leading one to want to disassociate oneself from all parties involved. It is just as untenable to defend the indiscriminate launching by Hamas of projectiles into Israeli neighborhoods as it is to defend the massive air bombing by Israel of what they have turned into an open-air prison that is designed to collectively punish hundreds of thousands of human beings.

Virtually everyone wishes the entire conflict would just go away. With the exception of extremists on both sides who benefit in various ways, nobody relishes having to become involved in any of this. It is exhausting, draining, soul-crushing, and miserable. Embracing "screw-both-sides" nihilism and doing nothing else is so tempting because it appears to provide relief from the burden of paying any further attention to the horrific violence or bearing responsibility for any of it.
But for two independent reasons, this reasoning, understandable though it may be, depends upon patent fictions, and is thus invalid. The first reason, which I will mention only briefly, is that there is not equality between the two sides.

http://www.esquire.c...ghting-14762304

You see And Then, the inequality and the constant bullying is what makes me feel more for the Palestinians than the Israelis. it´s similar if  I´m watching a sporting event when two teams are playing and neither are "my" team. i will always find myself cheering for the underdog. And that is how i kind of see Palestine in this whole thing which is why I sympathize with them more.

And with respect to all Palestinians wanting to annihilate Israel, I also don´t believe that to be true.

Does Hamas want to destroy Israel?

Hamas’s refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist sounds, on the face of it, belligerent and absolutist. After all, no one debates France’s right to exist, or Cuba’s. Why Israel?

Palestinians argue that if Israel has a fundamental right to exist as a Jewish majority state in the land of historic Palestine, then it must have had the right to expel 750,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and prevent them from returning, destroy over 400 Palestinian villages,[35] and import millions of Russians, Europeans, Ethiopians, and Americans to take their places. Without these actions, there would be no Jewish majority state inside what is now Israel.

While Israel demands that Palestinians respect Jewish rights to life, liberty, and property in Israel, Palestinians sense no reciprocal respect for their rights in either Israel or the Palestinian territories. Israeli soldiers and settlers often take innocent Palestinian lives for no justifiable reason, and very few of the killers are brought to trial.[36] Palestinian liberty is subjugated under the expansionist Israeli military authority in the West Bank and Gaza.^[37] And Israeli bulldozers illegally destroy Palestinian private property, including homes and land, on a daily basis.^[38]

Nonetheless, when most Hamas supporters today speak of “destroying Israel,” they don’t imagine killing or destroying the physical reality of Israel. Instead they are referring to the implementation of UN Resolution 194,^[39] which upholds the rights of the refugees of 1948 to return to their homes and land inside what is now Israel if they wish to. Such an action would destroy the Jewish monopoly on power inside Israel. Instead of an overwhelmingly Jewish-dominated state, the land and political power would be shared.

While nearly all Palestinians believe that this would be the most just result in theory, most understand that Israel, with its vastly greater power, will not allow such an outcome in the foreseeable future. Most are willing to accept this reality in exchange for their rights within the 1967 borders and fair restitution for refugees. To Palestinians, this represents an enormous compromise.

A poll released shortly after the Hamas elections victory by the Near East Consulting Institute of Ramallah found that 84% of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza—including 77% of Hamas voters—want a peace agreement with Israel based on two states for two people, while 86% want Mahmoud Abbas, the moderate PA leader, to remain president. Seventy-three percent of respondents believe that Hamas should “change its position on the elimination of the state of Israel.”[40]

As the lead editorial of The Guardian said on March 8, “It would be a mistake to fetishise the recognition question. The fact is that Israel has F16s, nuclear weapons, UN membership and international legitimacy. None of that will be taken away whether or not Hamas… amends its founding charter.”^[41]

Hamas has in any case stated several times that it is ready and willing to extend a de facto recognition of Israel in exchange for a de facto Israeli recognition of Palestine based on ‘67 borders. It is true that Hamas cannot recognize Israel de jure for religious reasons, any more than Ehud Olmert or a Zionist rabbi could sign a statement that said Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and large areas of Jordan are not part of Eretz Yisrael, the Biblical Land of Israel. But both sides are composed overwhelmingly of rational actors who are tired of violence and willing to compromise and live together.

http://pamolson.org/HamasFAQs.htm#q6

Edited by jugoso, 28 November 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[and then]

Jugoso it's a knot that will not be sorted.  I don't say this because I want war, I say it because I, too, have watched it unfold since I was 12 years old - 40 years now.  There are those who ridicule the religious reasoning behind this conflict but to deny it seems untenable any longer.  Let's face it, Israel is a SPECK on a very, very large map.  It has a population 1/1000 of the Arab neighbors that surround it.  But it is the focal point of almost all war in the world.  External control of the situation is impossible unless Israel agrees to it and as long as the Palestinians refuse to accept less than all the land Israel will never accede to the world's demands - nor should they.  In fact they don't even know who to try to make a peace with.  If they say yes to Abbas and the PA does everything it promises they STILL could be dogged by missiles from Hamas.  My belief is that AFTER the coming regional, very bloody war, Israel WILL accede to most of the world's demands because she will no longer be threatened by her neighbors - they, having been defeated in the war.  I could easily be incorrect but this is my understanding of scripture.  The maddening thing about this conflict is that the world would literally SHOWER the Palestinians with money in the form of grants and generous investments if they would make, then KEEP a peace in the region.  Their leaders are too heavily invested in fighting and cultivating hatred to let it go.  It would mean the end of their power.  Much like the race whore "leaders" in the US.  Their opposites in Israel - the settler movement and the ultra religious WOULD be shouted down, effectively,  IF a stable peace could be put to together for even a year.  Yet it goes on and on.....and on.

[Cradle of Fish]

I think people are suffering from a severe lack of perspective. Israel will go to war with Iran long before they have a functioning bomb. Even if they did manage to complete one they wouldn't launch it immediately, that would spell complete nuclear annihilation of Iran. All that is happening is the establishment of another MAD situation, like the US and Russia, and India and Pakistan. Speaking of Pakistan - it is a corrupt military dictatorship in a country with a large amount of fanatics. They hosted Osama bin Laden and a lot of insurgents during the Afghanistan war. Any nuclear devices they lost could turn up in the hands of terrorist organisation. And that isn't even mentioning broken arrows from the US or Russia. The threat of nuclear terrorism exists independant of Iran and their proxies.

This situation will not end in World War Three. Russia, China and the United States are far too pragmatic to get involved in a bunch of religious nutbags and their faeces slinging. If you want to see a far more likely trigger for war look at China's actions in the Chinese Sea lately.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

and then, on 28 November 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Jugoso it's a knot that will not be sorted.  I don't say this because I want war, I say it because I, too, have watched it unfold since I was 12 years old - 40 years now.  There are those who ridicule the religious reasoning behind this conflict but to deny it seems untenable any longer.  Let's face it, Israel is a SPECK on a very, very large map.  It has a population 1/1000 of the Arab neighbors that surround it.  But it is the focal point of almost all war in the world.  External control of the situation is impossible unless Israel agrees to it and as long as the Palestinians refuse to accept less than all the land Israel will never accede to the world's demands - nor should they.  In fact they don't even know who to try to make a peace with.  If they say yes to Abbas and the PA does everything it promises they STILL could be dogged by missiles from Hamas.  My belief is that AFTER the coming regional, very bloody war, Israel WILL accede to most of the world's demands because she will no longer be threatened by her neighbors - they, having been defeated in the war.  I could easily be incorrect but this is my understanding of scripture.  The maddening thing about this conflict is that the world would literally SHOWER the Palestinians with money in the form of grants and generous investments if they would make, then KEEP a peace in the region.  Their leaders are too heavily invested in fighting and cultivating hatred to let it go.  It would mean the end of their power.  Much like the race whore "leaders" in the US.  Their opposites in Israel - the settler movement and the ultra religious WOULD be shouted down, effectively,  IF a stable peace could be put to together for even a year.  Yet it goes on and on.....and on.

Then you say your understanding of the scriptures has lead you to believe that there will be another war so that Israel does not feel threatened any longer by its neighbors. I just can't find that in my Bible.

Can you please provide which Bible edition and the specific chapters/verses that have convinced you that this is the case.

I too have read the Bible, big fan of the New Testament, very partial towards Matthew, Luke, Mark, and John but I have enjoyed all the others stories as well.

Since you believe in Christ perhaps you may remember these passages:

Matthew 5:43-48

<sup>_{King James Version (KJV)}


43</sup> Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
⁴⁴ But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
⁴⁵ That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
⁴⁶ For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
⁴⁷ And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
⁴⁸ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


John 15:9-17

<sup>_{King James Version (KJV)}


9</sup> As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
¹⁰ If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
¹¹ These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
¹² This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
¹³ Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
¹⁴ Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
¹⁵ Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
¹⁶ Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
¹⁷ These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 29 November 2012 - 05:30 AM.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

It's all about respect, if we learned to treat each other with mutual respect and courtesy the world would surely be Paradise, and no one would even dream of heaven.

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 29 November 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[acidhead]

Of course Iran is working on a bomb... a really really big one.  One the size of frosty the snowman's head.  It's huge.

I'd start running right now if I were you.