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Santorum's new hobby: Oppose the disabled!


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#46    questionmark

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    Cinicus Magnus

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostHarte, on 05 December 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

To clarify -

The UN says it's okay, in fact preferable, for the State to decide what's best for my child.

Santorum says that it's not.

Why anyone would pretend not to know this is the real question here.

Harte

Now wait, are you trying to tell me that children are not being taken out of their families in case of major mistreatment or neglect?

What would you call that?

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#47    Harte

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

Where is neglect mentioned in the convention?

I know you're just jerking my chain here.

Harte

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

View PostHarte, on 05 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Where is neglect mentioned in the convention?

I know you're just jerking my chain here.

Harte

No, I am not jerking your chain, the convention sets no minimum requirements for children just that the government is to establish a standard. Like for example that deaf children should get signing classes, those incapable of walking wheelchair training and so on. And as it is right now, even without the convention, under the law there are no parents who can avoid doing that without having a social worker come down on them for neglect, and in reiteration may even loose custody of the children.

The convention calls for nothing else. And the addressee was not the US (even though, as soon as some here see UN they seem to be convinced of that) the addressee are those countries where children get locked up in a pen for being disabled. In the US those laws required, and the governmental supervision, already exist.

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#49    F3SS

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 December 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:



Mostly that it is not an American UN where only one opinion counts.

View Postquestionmark, on 05 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:



No, I am not jerking your chain, the convention sets no minimum requirements for children just that the government is to establish a standard. Like for example that deaf children should get signing classes, those incapable of walking wheelchair training and so on. And as it is right now, even without the convention, under the law there are no parents who can avoid doing that without having a social worker come down on them for neglect, and in reiteration may even loose custody of the children.

The convention calls for nothing else. And the addressee was not the US (even though, as soon as some here see UN they seem to be convinced of that) the addressee are those countries where children get locked up in a pen for being disabled. In the US those laws required, and the governmental supervision, already exist.
You just answered the first post I quoted with the second one. So the question is if we are not the addressee, and that was my understanding, why do we have to have anything to do with this except show support when it's clear that we already support such guidelines and if its not that then it seems a reasonable concern that the UN would have at least some oversight on such USA affairs, otherwise the bottom line question is what's the freaking point of our involvement in this? The only logical conclusion is political brownie points. It doesn't make sense, since we practically invented and imposed the law a long time ago. Or does the UN need our vote to impose their will over other countries? It seems like our employees are just wasting our time and money on this for the usual Dems love you Reps hate you crap.

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:46 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 05 December 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

You just answered the first post I quoted with the second one. So the question is if we are not the addressee, and that was my understanding, why do we have to have anything to do with this except show support when it's clear that we already support such guidelines and if its not that then it seems a reasonable concern that the UN would have at least some oversight on such USA affairs, otherwise the bottom line question is what's the freaking point of our involvement in this? The only logical conclusion is political brownie points. It doesn't make sense, since we practically invented and imposed the law a long time ago. Or does the UN need our vote to impose their will over other countries? It seems like our employees are just wasting our time and money on this for the usual Dems love you Reps hate you crap.

Naturally it makes sense. The US had human rights 150 years before the universal declaration was adopted, and that was not about the US either it was about the rest of the world (or most of it). Like most UN conventions.

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#51    Harte

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:46 PM

If a person cannot understand my point, I'm not inclined to elaborate on it.

Harte

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Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:50 PM

View PostHarte, on 05 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

If a person cannot understand my point, I'm not inclined to elaborate on it.

Harte

Your point is that the US is now forced to adopt something it already has, I understand that. But I don't see the loss in it. If the US at any point decides it wants to stop any part of the rights for anybody all it has to do is to cancel the membership of the convention one year prior.

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#53    Harte

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

The loss is the loss of an argument, not of anything with actual value beyond that.

It's the slippery slope argument.

People with children, especially disabled children, are wroth to even consider the government have a say over how they take care of them.

That's right.  I used the word wroth. :yes:

If you want to consider what is "lost," then consider what would be lost if the US declines to sign (which, according to an earlier post, is what happened.)

Did we condemn foreign disabled children to suffer?

When the convention is okayed, what sort of enforcement will ensue?  None?

Again, they lose an argument for the sake of nothing at all of benefit.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:00 PM

View PostHarte, on 05 December 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

The loss is the loss of an argument, not of anything with actual value beyond that.

It's the slippery slope argument.

People with children, especially disabled children, are wroth to even consider the government have a say over how they take care of them.

That's right.  I used the word wroth. :yes:

If you want to consider what is "lost," then consider what would be lost if the US declines to sign (which, according to an earlier post, is what happened.)

Did we condemn foreign disabled children to suffer?

When the convention is okayed, what sort of enforcement will ensue?  None?

Again, they lose an argument for the sake of nothing at all of benefit.

Harte

I have no doubt that most of the world will adopt that convention, excluding the usual suspects: Iran, Somalia, China and North Korea. A nice club to join.

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#55    F3SS

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:20 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:



I have no doubt that most of the world will adopt that convention, excluding the usual suspects: Iran, Somalia, China and North Korea. A nice club to join.
Alright but if we don't adopt the convention who cares? It's well known that we already have our own set of good laws for this. It hardly brings us into the company if those countries above. I mean who has the real issues here? US or the less modern countries who need the UN to tell them what they have to do? That's what's great about America, that we have so much more opportunity to offer than anybody else. No one needs our approval for laws. We have our own yet WE are the pricks when other countries don't. Everybody cries when we don't hold their hands and when we decide to let go of our grip they cry all the same. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't so I say don't. This particular thing isn't going to make anybody like us any more or any less so I say why put forth effort when the effort is meaningless?

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:41 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 05 December 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Alright but if we don't adopt the convention who cares? It's well known that we already have our own set of good laws for this. It hardly brings us into the company if those countries above. I mean who has the real issues here? US or the less modern countries who need the UN to tell them what they have to do? That's what's great about America, that we have so much more opportunity to offer than anybody else. No one needs our approval for laws. We have our own yet WE are the pricks when other countries don't. Everybody cries when we don't hold their hands and when we decide to let go of our grip they cry all the same. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't so I say don't. This particular thing isn't going to make anybody like us any more or any less so I say why put forth effort when the effort is meaningless?


Well, if it just is for posturing that the US sacrifices its leadership in the world it should wonder nobody that the rest is starting to look down instead of up...like fifteen years ago

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#57    Bella-Angelique

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:42 PM

The man is a monster.
He knows because of his child.
There are no mysteries or what could be done scenarios because IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE IN THE USA
It is the same. Do you understand? It is already the same, already happened, already been in place for decades.

What he is protecting is nothing but evil, the ability of a parent to keep a disabled child locked in a room or cage in another nation.
What he has done is to lie to create fear and if that fear based upon a lie causes another nation to hold back from protecting disabled children then a spot in the hottest parts of hell is being held open for him.

It is pure militant fascism from Santorum. Pure hate. Pure fury. May God punish him for it.

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#58    F3SS

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 December 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Well, if it just is for posturing that the US sacrifices its leadership in the world it should wonder nobody that the rest is starting to look down instead of up...like fifteen years ago
Very well. I'm sick of appeasement anyways. It doesn't get us anywhere. Like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't. So why do? (needn't answer that, you already have)

View PostBella-Angelique, on 05 December 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

The man is a monster.
He knows because of his child.
There are no mysteries or what could be done scenarios because IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE IN THE USA
It is the same. Do you understand? It is already the same, already happened, already been in place for decades.

What he is protecting is nothing but evil, the ability of a parent to keep a disabled child locked in a room or cage in another nation.
What he has done is to lie to create fear and if that fear based upon a lie causes another nation to hold back from protecting disabled children then a spot in the hottest parts of hell is being held open for him.

It is pure militant fascism from Santorum. Pure hate. Pure fury. May God punish him for it.
My goodness. I think the hate and fury lies within you towards Rick. Seriously, the dude's got a disabled kid. Why on Earth would he publically oppose this if his true nature was hate and rage ESPECIALLY towards his own kid? Your entire rant is ridiculous. You're raging on an American likely because of his political affiliation when you should be directing your militant furious hatred towards the assbackwards countries who don't already have laws like this in place.

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#59    Bella-Angelique

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 05 December 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

you should be directing your militant furious hatred towards the assbackwards countries who don't already have laws like this in place.

How would you suggest doing that?
Through a United Nations treaty and vote?

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#60    F3SS

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:22 PM

No, just keep blaming Americans for the way others countries treat people. And about Santorum; Who cares what he has to say one way or the other. Last I checked he isn't a politician and he certainly isn't an inner circle power player. I'm from freaking Pennsylvania and only got to know him because of his run for candidacy. Granted I wasn't in to politics while he was around but realistically he's a nobody. All this subject is is a reason for liberals to demonize republicans and that's according to the op thread title and the other headlines about this on other outlets a few days ago and you have proved that undoubtedly with your little tirade before. It's nothing but big bait for little noisy fish.

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