461 replies to this topic

[iforgot]

I'll start by saying that I'm not religious at all, and that I (probably) never will be. I guess a good description would be spiritual!

However, I'm really curious where, or what force, non-believers think we (and physical reality itself) came from. If everything in physical reality needs a cause to have an effect (simple laws of physics), then what was the initial cause to create the physical reality we live in? If everything in our physical reality needs a cause to have an effect, the only way for initial creation was for some outside force to essentially create our physical reality, or our reality must have broken its own laws of physics at the beginning of time.

By saying there was no cause, and knowing that our universe has not been around for an infinite amount of time means that a mystical (paranormal) force caused creation. By saying there was a cause, then something had to have created our universe (such as what many people would describe as 'God'). It seems like a simple and self defeating argument.

It's clear that our universe wasn't always in existence, so I'm anxious to hear your opinions. This simple reason is why I do not understand the die hard atheists, or people who take a close-minded skeptical stance instead of open-minded and skeptical view of our reality.

Edited by iforgot, 28 November 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[keithisco]

The real problem here is how to comprehend that which appears to be incomprehensible.

For me it is simple, the Universe (as we understand it) cycles through phases. We are living in an expanding phase giving plenty of time for Solar System creation and Evolution to exist, not forgetting "Time". When this phase submits itself to Entropic forces then the Universe (Ours) will contract again in preparation (not cognitive) for the next expansion.

No real Mystery here, and no need to invoke a "God" principle. IMO

[OverSword]

Don't athiests believe we evolved from protoplasm growing in a puddle of slime in the far distant past?

[scowl]

iforgot, on 28 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

However, I'm really curious where, or what force, non-believers think we (and physical reality itself) came from. If everything in physical reality needs a cause to have an effect (simple laws of physics), then what was the initial cause to create the physical reality we live in?

There's absolutely no way to find the answer to this question. I prefer to spend my time finding answers to answerable questions that may benefit someone.

[scowl]

OverSword, on 28 November 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Don't athiests believe we evolved from protoplasm growing in a puddle of slime in the far distant past?

The OP is asking a much harder question: where did everything come from?

[Etu Malku]

I like these two theories:
Stephen Hawkings' idea that the Universe has no beginning or end . . . it just IS.
And IMO the better explanation by Alexander Vilenkin that the Universe started from "literally nothing", meaning not only the absence of matter, but the absence of space and time as well.

The Universe started in totally empty geometry and then made a quantum tunneling transition to a non-empty state (subatomic in size), which through inflation (the Universe expands exponentially fast for a brief period of time which causes its size to increase dramatically) came to its current size.

The objective universe is one big meme, creating new things out of itself, recreating things, destroying things that don't prove beneficial to the survival of the Universe Meme.

Edited by Etu Malku, 28 November 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[freetoroam]

my answer is the same as the likes I have clipped above,
One thing i can most certainly definately tell you is where we did not come from....god. IMO

Edited by freetoroam, 28 November 2012 - 05:46 PM.

[iforgot]

scowl, on 28 November 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

The OP is asking a much harder question: where did everything come from?

Yup! Thank you.

keithisco, on 28 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

The real problem here is how to comprehend that which appears to be incomprehensible.

For me it is simple, the Universe (as we understand it) cycles through phases. We are living in an expanding phase giving plenty of time for Solar System creation and Evolution to exist, not forgetting "Time". When this phase submits itself to Entropic forces then the Universe (Ours) will contract again in preparation (not cognitive) for the next expansion.

No real Mystery here, and no need to invoke a "God" principle. IMO

Personally, I'm not a fan of the 'God' principle either. The idea of an egotistical, judgmental, and therefore fearful God seems a little silly to me

That's not to say that I don't have an idea of where we came from though. Tom Campbell's explanation seems like the best one to me (if you want his full theory of everything, read his book 'My Big TOE' on Google books. Great book!). His idea is something to the effect of physical reality is a product of non-physical reality which is in turn a product of some primordial (beginning of time) consciousness.

To really briefly summarize his idea, the primordial consciousness functions as an extremely evolved and powerful super computer. Physical reality (as well as non-physical reality) stems from a sort of simulation run by this computer to evolve consciousness to lower forms of entropy (to have a greater potential to do work). Obviously, there would be many simulations all running at the same time but I'm starting to sound like a lunatic so I'll leave these ideas here.

Comprehending what created the conditions necessary for a consciousness super computer- now that's incomprehensible!

Etu Malku, on 28 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

I like these two theories:
Stephen Hawkings' idea that the Universe has no beginning or end . . . it just IS.
And IMO the better explanation by Alexander Vilenkin that the Universe started from "literally nothing", meaning not only the absence of matter, but the absence of space and time as well.

The Universe started in totally empty geometry and then made a quantum tunneling transition to a non-empty state (subatomic in size), which through inflation (the Universe expands exponentially fast for a brief period of time which causes its size to increase dramatically) came to its current size.

The objective universe is one big meme, creating new things out of itself, recreating things, destroying things that don't prove beneficial to the survival of the Universe Meme.

Both of these ideas clearly violate the cause and effect relationship that we know must exist in physical reality. They do not explain the paranormal or mystical events at all. precognitive dreaming and Out-of-body experiences are all pretty common (for me at least), so in my opinion, a good theory of everything would explain that too. Or in the very least, give a logical reason for them to happen!

Stay with me here, we are on a paranormal-centered discussion board after all.

Edited by iforgot, 28 November 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[Hasina]

Makes me think of the joke: 'When did time start?' 'Even Time doesn't remember, it was before his time.'

[Liquid Gardens]

iforgot, on 28 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

However, I'm really curious where, or what force, non-believers think we (and physical reality itself) came from. If everything in physical reality needs a cause to have an effect (simple laws of physics), then what was the initial cause to create the physical reality we live in? If everything in our physical reality needs a cause to have an effect, the only way for initial creation was for some outside force to essentially create our physical reality, or our reality must have broken its own laws of physics at the beginning of time.

My issue with how you have phrased this is that you are including 'everything needs to have a cause' in the argument.  We don't know how valid it is to apply the laws of physics of this physical universe we live in to something outside the universe or to 'before' the Big Bang occurred.  If time was created at the same time as the Big Bang, then how can there even be a cause and an effect since those requires time to exist?

Quote

By saying there was no cause, and knowing that our universe has not been around for an infinite amount of time means that a mystical (paranormal) force caused creation. By saying there was a cause, then something had to have created our universe (such as what many people would describe as 'God'). It seems like a simple and self defeating argument.

If everything needs a cause, then what caused God or the mystical creation force to exist?  If those can exist without having been caused, then why does the Big Bang need a cause?

[Hasina]

Maybe WE created it, man. Wooaah...

[Armchair Educated]

your answer just sounds like a fancy way to say god, where did the primodial mind come from?

[Alienated Being]

We don't know, that's the thing. Scientists may never know, but to assume that we have been created through processes of divinity due to dictation from one lone book is nothing short of ignorance.

Edited by Alienated Being, 28 November 2012 - 05:58 PM.

[Armchair Educated]

god is meant to be perfection and u cant be perfection with out being self existing, so god always existed.

[freetoroam]

Hasina, on 28 November 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Maybe WE created it, man. Wooaah...

We aint that cleva!