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Where do athiests think we came from?


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#241    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:08 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 05 December 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

1. It has always baffled me why some people see the brain as a computer and the mind as a software package running on it. That is completely unproven by neuroscience and if you actually read up on the mainstream position they tell you that. Neurons are not transisters and work nothing like them.
Want to try reading what I wrote and not beating a straw man? No one called it a damn computer.

**However it does compute, and process input and output information. This neuroscience/biology/etc has shown.

Quote

Secondly the mind contains properties impossible to produce in a computer such as abstract thinking.
There is nothing in mainstream neuroscience to suggest it is impossible. Complex, but not impossible.

http://www.indiana.e.../mindmade.shtml

Edited by Rlyeh, 05 December 2012 - 04:43 PM.


#242    Coffey

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostArbenol68, on 04 December 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Why is that a mistake?
Why are "extremist Christians" wrong?
Why are you right?

When it comes to what god is like - appearance, nature, personality, needs, desires, etc - you can't all be right. But you can all be wrong.


it's a mistake to only think that god is a being because if you read all the different interpretations of God from different religions/beliefs and Science. Then you would know that "God" does not have to be a being.

Take that postal worker who sent that little girl a letter from "god" about her dog and how he says God is all around as love is God. This kind of thing adds to the fact God does not have to be a thinking/logical being. Mother nature is also another association to "God".

Even believing God is just an energy around us that joins everything is another way of believing their is a god.

As for Extremist Christians, I used those as an example because they take the bible too literal. They also refuse to acknowledge history and scientific research.


I'm never said I was right, I'm going by what "God" actually means in history and science.

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#243    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 05 December 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

1. It has always baffled me why some people see the brain as a computer and the mind as a software package running on it. That is completely unproven by neuroscience and if you actually read up on the mainstream position they tell you that. Neurons are not transisters and work nothing like them. Secondly the mind contains properties impossible to produce in a computer such as abstract thinking.
That may well be untrue. A complex enough computer can technically reproduce all the abilities of human thought  including abstract thought such as conceptualisation, symbolic formation and attachment of symbols to linguistic labels, and philosphical reasoning. When a computer develops its own religious  theology we will know it has reached human capacity.Computers, indeed, are increasingly modelled on our understanding of human thought and increasingly capable of reproducing it. WHY do you assume a biological/organic "brain" can do things an artificial one cannot?

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 December 2012 - 09:04 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#244    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 05 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Lets re-write that again and this time make it an non believer theme -  I know there is no god for everyone, just same as any fairy tale creature  

So a believer can say it, and claim they know ( just like you have )  as can any given atheist .. No point in bringing greed into these ideas and think it is OK for you and not OK for any non believer
.. :innocent:

No one can KNOW there is no god even for themselves. That is presently an impossible thing to know. They can claim it, but it is incorrect and thus makes them seem a little bit simple. Anyone without knowledge can believe what they like and that is logical and legitimate. Anyone with knowledge is no longer free or able to believe unless they split their mind and become sort of disfunctional/delusional. Ie. for me to now disbelieve OR believe in god I would have to be delusional. For me to only believe in or disbelieve in the existence of my wife or dog, likewise I would have to be delusional.
I KNOW all these things exist, and have to ensure my mind accepts this knowledge, even where it goes counter to prior  strongly held disbelief.  If I met an alien or unicorn, or bigfoot, I would have to go through the same process again. It would be easier now, having experienced it once. I think that if I met a unicorn or bigfoot, I would not tell anyone else about it, both for my sake and that of the unicorn/bigfoot. But god can look after himself.

MAny religious believers do split their mind like this, but so do some non believers. They allow their sincere belief to become  what they believe is "knowledge " in their minds, but it is not. Knowledge must demonstrate a certain degree and range of empirical proofs to become knowledge . I have more than adequate empirical proofs for the existence of an entity which i choose to define as god. Others can argue it is not/cannot be, god (because they have a different mental image and definition of what constitutes a god ) but they  would be incorrect to argue it did not exist.

Heres a practical example. How long did coelacanth exist, without anyone knowing they did? How many people were required to know of its existence before its reality was established? Answer. Only one.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 December 2012 - 09:31 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#245    Arbenol

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostCoffey, on 05 December 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

it's a mistake to only think that god is a being because if you read all the different interpretations of God from different religions/beliefs and Science. Then you would know that "God" does not have to be a being.

Doesn't have to be, no. But could. My point here is that many interpretations of god are valid as no one can say for sure. This includes the interpretation that there is no god.

View PostCoffey, on 05 December 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

As for Extremist Christians, I used those as an example because they take the bible too literal. They also refuse to acknowledge history and scientific research.


I'm never said I was right, I'm going by what "God" actually means in history and science.

I agree with this to an extent. Fundamentalist and literal interpretations of the Bible are potentially damaging (especially to children). But here I would focus on the effects these can have on the teaching of biological and geological sciences, physics, cosmology and morality. I'm not sure that an extreme or fundamental christian can be shown to be wrong about how they view their god. I don't know what you mean by "what "God" actually means in history and science". What can history and science tell us about the nature of god? I thought it was very little.


#246    Coffey

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

View PostArbenol68, on 05 December 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Doesn't have to be, no. But could. My point here is that many interpretations of god are valid as no one can say for sure. This includes the interpretation that there is no god.

Of course, but my point was, if you go by the many interpretations of god you can't prove there isn't a god or no need for one either as of right now we don't know that.

View PostArbenol68, on 05 December 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

I agree with this to an extent. Fundamentalist and literal interpretations of the Bible are potentially damaging (especially to children). But here I would focus on the effects these can have on the teaching of biological and geological sciences, physics, cosmology and morality. I'm not sure that an extreme or fundamental christian can be shown to be wrong about how they view their god. I don't know what you mean by "what "God" actually means in history and science". What can history and science tell us about the nature of god? I thought it was very little.

Well I mean the seriously extreme, like the ones who will put their religion before morals and other peoples lives. (which is wrong)

Well Pagans, Christians, Muslims, Jews etc all believe in a God and they are all a huge part of our history, when you take all that information and put it together and also add in what science knows you come to a conclusion that IF there is a God, then God must be an energy or connection between everything and not likely to be a being of some sort. Each religion even shows this in many ways, mentioning god being all around us and within us etc. How could a being possibly be those things?

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

#247    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:09 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 December 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

No one can KNOW there is no god

Same can be said about those who claim they know there is a god, when they have nothing to show that others can observe , other than a few of their own tales to tell.. that's it.. No hard evidence to prove it..

You can write 100 tales of your own, ( and you most likely have )  but you have nothing solid  or physical to show for all to observe.... It is and always will be a matter of choice to believe it or not... What you class as your knowledge, is what others may class as your delusion  or belief, depending on the person.   This leaves you with nothing more than a tale or two of your own and your own choice to think it is knowledge for you..All boils down to what you believe or not

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    How long did coelacanth exist without anyone knowing they did?        

Fish are not supernatural, they can be observed for all to see, just like animals..

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#248    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

View PostCoffey, on 05 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:


Well Pagans, Christians, Muslims, Jews etc all believe in a God

How many gods do Pagans believe in ?

Quote

     Of course, but my point was, if you go by the many interpretations of god you can't prove there isn't a god or no need for one either as of right now we don't know that.                

You cannot prove a negative or the positive that there is or is not a god of any kind

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#249    scowl

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 28 November 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

god is meant to be perfection and u cant be perfection with out being self existing, so god always existed.

Or by this logic, God has never existed.


#250    Jinxdom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:27 AM

Religion is nothing more then a set of rules and laws that one follows..... Looks like computers already have that. :). Computers are nothing more then fundamentalists for the cause of whatever OS that they are running.

This is why I like to be sure what the definition for a word is to the person who speaks it since we all look at the same things completely differently. God or Not we follow some sort of creator. Nature, Physics, Math, Your parents, yourself, Some crazy force illusionary force.

God is nothing more then a word trying to explain something that you find that is too simple and too complex to understand. What changes the definition for you is when you find that.

Hence why trying to define what God is beyond that is quite stupid from the geniuses of Science and Religion.


#251    The Silver Thong

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 06 December 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

Religion is nothing more then a set of rules and laws that one follows..... Looks like computers already have that. :). Computers are nothing more then fundamentalists for the cause of whatever OS that they are running.

This is why I like to be sure what the definition for a word is to the person who speaks it since we all look at the same things completely differently. God or Not we follow some sort of creator. Nature, Physics, Math, Your parents, yourself, Some crazy force illusionary force.

God is nothing more then a word trying to explain something that you find that is too simple and too complex to understand. What changes the definition for you is when you find that.

Hence why trying to define what God is beyond that is quite stupid from the geniuses of Science and Religion.


What that fails to explain to others is that all are man made.

no god required

Edited by The Silver Thong, 06 December 2012 - 05:33 AM.

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#252    Jinxdom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:51 AM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 06 December 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

What that fails to explain to others is that all are man made.

no god required

I agree but a creator is required in some form. Which gets tacked on to the definition of God. Which screws the whole pooch as people have a tendency to want to know what made them at different levels. This is why religion has that whole true name clause.
If science finds what actually created everything then basically the concept of the current religious "God" dies even though religion won't go away because there is a still a creator. It's a stupid cycle.


#253    C235

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:44 AM

One day science will find God, add some scientific name & characteristics to it & then tell us " I told you so!" :mellow:

Edited by C235, 06 December 2012 - 07:44 AM.


#254    Rlyeh

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:19 AM

View PostC235, on 06 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

One day science will find God, add some scientific name & characteristics to it & then tell us " I told you so!" :mellow:
Oh they found him alright, in a book.


#255    C235

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:52 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 06 December 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Oh they found him alright, in a book.

What are you so afraid of? or hate so ?

The possibility is there. Why oppose even the possibility of God?

Edited by C235, 06 December 2012 - 08:54 AM.





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