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Where do athiests think we came from?


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#256    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:20 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 05 December 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Same can be said about those who claim they know there is a god, when they have nothing to show that others can observe , other than a few of their own tales to tell.. that's it.. No hard evidence to prove it..

You can write 100 tales of your own, ( and you most likely have )  but you have nothing solid  or physical to show for all to observe.... It is and always will be a matter of choice to believe it or not... What you class as your knowledge, is what others may class as your delusion  or belief, depending on the person.   This leaves you with nothing more than a tale or two of your own and your own choice to think it is knowledge for you..All boils down to what you believe or not



Fish are not supernatural, they can be observed for all to see, just like animals..
I am sorry but my knowledge is not and never is /has been, dependent on being able to prove what I know to another person.Neither is your knowledge.

Like many people you are confusing tranferability of evidences with the actual evidences themselves. Knowledge depends only on  experiential evidence, logic ,deduction,  evaluation etc. But NOT on having to share or prove that knowledge.

That was the point i was making about the fish. As soon as ONE human being had seen it, it WAS a  known reality (it had been an unknown reality for thousands of years.) The fisherman could have thrown it back but he would have KNOWN it existed. He is not required to prove, or demonstrate, or even share, that knowledge to another, for it to be valid knowledge to him.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#257    C235

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:52 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 05 December 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Same can be said about those who claim they know there is a god, when they have nothing to show that others can observe , other than a few of their own tales to tell.. that's it.. No hard evidence to prove it..

You can write 100 tales of your own, ( and you most likely have )  but you have nothing solid  or physical to show for all to observe.... It is and always will be a matter of choice to believe it or not... What you class as your knowledge, is what others may class as your delusion  or belief, depending on the person.   This leaves you with nothing more than a tale or two of your own and your own choice to think it is knowledge for you..All boils down to what you believe or not



Fish are not supernatural, they can be observed for all to see, just like animals..

So in another word knowledge is what others can touch, see & approve!

Reminds me when i was little, girls would ask me to prove them i'm a boy. :unsure2: & I see their logic in you all.


#258    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

View PostC235, on 06 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

So in another word knowledge is what others can touch, see & approve!

Reminds me when i was little, girls would ask me to prove them i'm a boy. :unsure2: & I see their logic in you all.

ROFLMCAO.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#259    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

I am sorry but my knowledge is not and never is /has been, dependent on being able to prove what I know


If you rely on people believing your tale and because you have no way of proving any of it, then it is a belief and a choice that is made by whoever chooses to believe you.

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#260    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:17 AM

View PostC235, on 06 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Reminds me when i was little, girls would ask me to prove them i'm a boy. :unsure2: & I see their logic in you all.
You were made from wood and your name was Pinocchio, you had trouble convincing them you were a real boy  lol :P  I kid on that

Seriously though,  If I post up a tale of my own god experience, what would it take for you to believe me, and call it all fact and it becomes knowledge?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 December 2012 - 11:17 AM.

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#261    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:18 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

If you rely on people believing your tale and because you have no way of proving any of it, then it is a belief and a choice that is made by whoever chooses to believe you.
No it is a fact, but it is up to others to believe it or not. ie for me it is a factual, evidenced reality It is NOT a belief position. Anyone without similar evidenced reality  is free to ,and perhaps  must, chose  either belief or disbelief. But the existence of god is NOT  open to belief for me. I KNOW god is real, physical sapient and concerned  Exactly like my wife and my dog are real, physical sapient to a certian degree and some what concerned for my welfare. How do i know this? By using the same evidences logic and contextual realities in each case.  They all tell me, and show me, that they are real, physical and concerned for me. The fact they can do  this, and that they express concern for me, proves they are sapient and self aware (even my dog to a certain extent)

Thats the clearest explanation I can give, but to someone without similar experiences it simply may not make sense or be believable. That is NOT my problem and it doesnt discredit what i know to be true about my wife my dog or my god.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#262    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:20 AM

View PostC235, on 06 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

One day science will find God, add some scientific name & characteristics to it & then tell us " I told you so!" :mellow:

If science one day proves there really is a god, everyone can observe god... so god then becomes what?

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#263    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

You were made from wood and your name was Pinocchio, you had trouble convincing them you were a real boy  lol :P  I kid on that

Seriously though,  If I post up a tale of my own god experience, what would it take for you to believe me, and call it all fact and it becomes knowledge?
You see, for me, I would choose to believe you. I cant KNOW if you are telling the truth, but i am going to assume, given past writing that you are an honest and relaible/sane person. So, no problems. You met god.

Now if you are lying, that doesnt affect me at all. Only YOU know your truthfulness, and so it is only you who has to worry about it.

If you know you met god, using normal rational and evidenced interactions with god as the basis for that knowledge, then you did. Same as if you actually met Sir Paul McCartney. You would KNOW if you had, but you might have a lot of trouble proving it to me. But i  would choose to believe you, or at least not to disbelieve you. Why would you lie?

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#264    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

but it is up to others to believe it or not.

Which is all you can hope for, those to make the choice to believe your tale or not..   Edit to add,  I wont call you a lair, I can be kind and say,   ( considering I have read your tales for many years now, and I know you longer than so many here )  I see other possible theories to your stories..  IE - One you call god,  ( the door in the sky tale ) I told you once that it could be UFO / ET linked  They are good tales, but some people will put other possible theories to them, and you already know this..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 December 2012 - 11:35 AM.

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#265    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

If science one day proves there really is a god, everyone can observe god... so god then becomes what?

God. Same as always.

Or; you could ask him what "he" would like to be called. I call "him" mate, but then I am Australian.

Edited by Mr Walker, 06 December 2012 - 11:30 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#266    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:29 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

You see, for me, I would choose to believe you. I cant KNOW if you are telling the truth, but i am going to assume, given past writing that you are an honest and relaible/sane person. So, no problems. You met god.


I understand that Mr Walker and I appreciate it... . But say you do not know of me, you have no idea who I am and you have never read my posts before..My question to you is -  If I write a tale of an experience, what would it take for you to say - Oh this must be fact?

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#267    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 06 December 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

God. Same as always.

Ha ha nice one  lol :P ..But no, that's not what I meant.. Yes Mr Walker he will be the same god,  but once all can observe and is proven by science,  god then becomes what?   Think about that a little more

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#268    Rlyeh

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:34 AM

View PostC235, on 06 December 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

What are you so afraid of? or hate so ?

The possibility is there. Why oppose even the possibility of God?
Is life so horrifying you need your imaginary friend to hold your hand?


#269    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:37 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 December 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

I understand that Mr Walker and I appreciate it... . But say you do not know of me, you have no idea who I am and you have never read my posts before..My question to you is -  If I write a tale of an experience, what would it take for you to say - Oh this must be fact?

I cant judge because I wasnt there, but i would rely on your word and your capable mind, so i would accept that what you saw and experienced was real. I would not think or assume it was an hallucination, or that you must have been mistaken, or that you are incapable of identifiying objective reality from delusion.

As to your truthfulness I cant know for a fact. I would make a judgement call on that ,based on your past truthfulness, but i would say that, if you saw it, and believed it to be true, then i would back your judgement. I have absolutely no reason not to.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#270    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:38 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 05 December 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Want to try reading what I wrote and not beating a straw man? No one called it a damn computer.

**However it does compute, and process input and output information. This neuroscience/biology/etc has shown.

There is nothing in mainstream neuroscience to suggest it is impossible. Complex, but not impossible.

http://www.indiana.e.../mindmade.shtml

Little clockman living on a clockman world
Who thinks reality is deterministic
Unable to see where he's going wrong
Even if whats said is simplistic

You'll get there one day but you might rust to peices before then lol

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 06 December 2012 - 11:39 AM.





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