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Where do athiests think we came from?


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#46    Ashotep

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:46 PM

If the universe started with nothing, how do you get something from nothing?  There must of been something out there from the very beginning, whatever the beginning really was.

Maybe we are all just living in a giant bubble and we are the pets of some alien race.


#47    Ever Learning

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:49 PM

Alienated Being i would really like to hear about your OBE if your willing to share it

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#48    Etu Malku

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostHilander, on 28 November 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

If the universe started with nothing, how do you get something from nothing?  There must of been something out there from the very beginning, whatever the beginning really was.

Maybe we are all just living in a giant bubble and we are the pets of some alien race.
Why must there have been something? Nothing as in a vacuum, nothing as in the Egyptian Waters of Nun, nothing as in before Plato's First Forms, nothing as in before time, energy, matter and the Laws of Physics . . . just millions of Isolate Intelligences waiting to separate from their Monad and devolve downward into a Physic Realm!

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#49    White Crane Feather

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:33 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 28 November 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:


It seems to be difficult to those who spend time researching, experimenting and developing theories.


Except when time completely ceases to exist, and we are all "frozen"...


What else have you learned from the ocean in these hallucinations?


This notion of "no time" is not silly at all, and has been the topic of discussion amongst experts for many, many years. I would like to see you use your discussion with the ocean as evidence for reinforcement of your delusional theories against a group of highly educated individuals who dedicate their time to answering these questions, and see how seriously they take you.

http://www.scientifi...time-before-big
Only difficult to proove a particular theory.

Nothing freezes. No matter what there are still quantum fluctuations. A quantum fluctuation is a candidate for what started the singularity in the first place.

If hawking is right then singularities will evenchually evaporate away.... This is CHANGE. Quite obviously this silly notion of time Stopping is a myth. If the LHC manages to produce a mini black hole and they suspect it will, this will be prooven.

Many things but mostly personal

I would never bring internal revelation to a talk like that other than just an experience.

And yes I have had in depth conversations with highly educated individuals including PHDs on the subject, have you? They are not nearly as closed minded as you are. In fact they would tear your fundamentalist and charming attitude apart.

I also do another thing.... It's called reading. Many prominent scientists reject the idea of true time and space being created with the expansion. My knowledge of the subject is not my own... I'm not a scientist. I simply read.

You are a silly man AB. Your link is just a rebuttel against one of penroses models. Quit obviously change happens ( time), there would have to be a hell of a smokeing gun of evidence to suggest that change never occurred prior to the expansion. In fact what changed to allow change to occur ? Obviously there was the potential for change... This is causality/proper ----whatever--- time. The time that your head is stuck on is simply the propigation of signals and the march of entropy which does "freeze" inside of a singularity. This in no way suggests that it can't change. Otherwise why would hawking even propose that a singularity can evaporate.

realativity is simply a result of the conductivity of space. The speed of light limit creates what we see in realativity. It's just a function of how fast internal signaling ( ticks) can happen.

I suggest you spend more time actually reading books or Mabey workshops or talks with actual scientists.

You have a very nieve a sublevel understanding of what scientists are saying.


"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#50    White Crane Feather

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:40 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 28 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:


SOME mens observation.
The only things that may apear to not have a cause are the things we don't fully understand. I'm no determinist... Not by a stretch, but every observation every man has made seems to have a cause until we get to the horizon of our capabilities to observe.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#51    freetoroam

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:55 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 28 November 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

The only things that may apear to not have a cause are the things we don't fully understand. I'm no determinist... Not by a stretch, but every observation every man has made seems to have a cause until we get to the horizon of our capabilities to observe.
I understand.
Some mens observation of the "cause" can differ, eg: religiously...then we have a whole different ball  game.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#52    redhen

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

The OP's question "where did we come from" without a creator is tied to the old question "why is there something rather than nothing? The scientific answer is that "nothing (meaning emptiness) is unstable.

Virtual particles are one example of something coming from nothing.

"they are called virtual particles or vacuum fluctuations of vacuum energy. In a certain sense, they can be understood to be a manifestation of the time-energy uncertainty principle in a vacuum"

So who needs a "creator" ?


#53    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:23 PM

View Postiforgot, on 28 November 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

If there was nothing, then how does that spawn something?


understanding the force that created us is clearly outside the realms of our comprehension.

It sounds like your second sentence addresses your question.

Quote

What we know for sure is that everything in this reality needs a cause in order to have an effect. The big bang is no exception. If it came from somewhere where things needed no cause, then that would leave a gray area for it to have spawned from somewhere mystical all the same (because everything we know in this reality needs a cause).

Define 'this reality' and the bounds of it.  Does that include other universes and also the 'mystical' realm whatever that is?  When it comes to physical laws, I think you need to bound them at 'this universe', not 'this reality' (assuming there is something else other than our universe); we have no access to other universes if they exist and thus have no evidence that the same physical laws apply outside of our own.  Is it your opinion that there is some type of 'meta-time' that was passing while there was no universe, pre-Big Bang?  What created that meta-realm?

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
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#54    Ever Learning

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:25 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

The OP's question "where did we come from" without a creator is tied to the old question "why is there something rather than nothing? The scientific answer is that "nothing (meaning emptiness) is unstable.

Virtual particles are one example of something coming from nothing.

"they are called virtual particles or vacuum fluctuations of vacuum energy. In a certain sense, they can be understood to be a manifestation of the time-energy uncertainty principle in a vacuum"

So who needs a "creator" ?
why is emptiness unstable and can these tempory fluctations start the ball rolling?
a creator can still be the hand behind any of the ways that everything began

www.paranormaltales.boards.net

#55    White Crane Feather

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:30 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

The OP's question "where did we come from" without a creator is tied to the old question "why is there something rather than nothing? The scientific answer is that "nothing (meaning emptiness) is unstable.

Virtual particles are one example of something coming from nothing.

"they are called virtual particles or vacuum fluctuations of vacuum energy. In a certain sense, they can be understood to be a manifestation of the time-energy uncertainty principle in a vacuum"

So who needs a "creator" ?
When a scientist says "nothing" it really means "I don't know".  Vacuum energy appears to come from nothing. Or it might just come from somewhere that we are not or cannot be aware of. It might come from nothing... But the very nature of nothing hides if it might actually be something.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#56    Hasina

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:32 PM

How to create and manage Universe:
1) ???
2) Universe!
3) ???
4) PROFIT!
5) Heat Death

Posted Image

~MEH~


#57    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:33 PM

Either you believe in a creation (whether or not its cause is conscious) or you ascribe god like properties to the universe (i.e. it always existed, even outside of time and space)

Also, this idea of an expansion/contraction staged universe is not likely for a number of reasons. The first being that we don't even have 1/10th of the matter required to stop the universe expanding. But the reason i dislike this theory is that it is a theory that puts the start of the universe further from us, rather than bringing the answer closer.


#58    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:05 PM

The universe is female, she is always willing to make something out of nothing....... So my husband tells me... lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 28 November 2012 - 09:06 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#59    Setton

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 28 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

my answer is the same as the likes I have clipped above,
One thing i can most certainly definately tell you is where we did not come from....god. IMO

Certainly, definitely, in your opinion? Please tell me that was meant to be a joke :P

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#60    redhen

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 28 November 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

why is emptiness unstable and can these tempory fluctations start the ball rolling?
a creator can still be the hand behind any of the ways that everything began

Nature (and cats) abhor a vacuum   It's a funny idiom, but it's also my gut instinct.

More seriously, as I understand it certain particles can spring up, short lived, out of nothing.  I'm not a quantum physicist so I could be all wrong. From wiki;

"In quantum field theory, a false vacuum is a metastable sector of space that appears to be a perturbative vacuum, but is unstable due to instanton effects that may tunnel to a lower energy state"

Of course it doesn't prove that the universe popped into existence out of nothing, but it does show that certain particles can.

And yes, you are correct, a creator could be behind all these events but it's not a requirement.





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