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Bible Study - Matthew 12:42

possible goddess reference?

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#1    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:11 AM

From Matthew chapter 12


The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

******
///////////////////////


Is it coincidental that Jesus speaks of this Queen of the South, coming out of the uttermost parts of the earth, when he had just told the Pharisees that he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth?

We know (research would describe) that Soloman had been into Goddess worship. Is he merely speaking of Queen Sheba's interest in Solomon, or do you think it could be reference to a diety? Why would Jesus be speaking in terms of this Queen having the ability to condemn a generation? Isn't this an authority assumed in scriptures by a God?

I came across this today and the wonder of Goddess resurection came to my mind... I never read about, or considered this aspect before.... What do you think? I looked briefly on the internet, and nothing popped up about it... Just a thought...

Edited by SpiritWriter, 29 November 2012 - 02:15 AM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#2    Copen

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 02:31 AM

Hi SpiritWriter:
Just going to give you my view point. May not be right; but here goes.
Jesus was talking to the evil an adulterous generation of scribes and Pharisees. They asked for a sign and He gave the prophecy of His impending death in the grave 3 days and 3 nights as the only sign they would be given. Then Jesus tells them, (concerning signs), that men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment against that present generation of scribes and Pharisees for after hearing Jonah preach, they of Niveveh repented. But a greater than Jonah, (who was Jesus), was among them, (the scribes and Pharisees) and they had not repented.

Then Jesus gives another example of Queen Sheba who had not seen a sign but traveled a great distance to hear the wisdom of Solomon ---- and a greater than Solomon, (Jesus), was among them and they did not hear His wisdom. The example of Queen Sheba would also condemn that generation of scribes and Pharisees in the Judgement.
God bless us all is my prayer


#3    Karlis

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:39 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 29 November 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

From Matthew chapter 12


The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign

~~~ ... 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, ...
~~~ ... 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, ...


~~~ ... Why would Jesus be speaking in terms of this Queen having the ability to condemn a generation? Isn't this an authority assumed in scriptures by a God?
Hi SpiritWriter -- both the Queen Sheba and the men of Nineveh mentioned here, in the same exact context. The men of Nineveh are not "gods", and there is no reason to assume that the Queen would be "a goddess".

Taking everything into consideration, Copen has given a clear and concise explanation. :tu:


#4    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:21 AM

View PostKarlis, on 29 November 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

Hi SpiritWriter -- both the Queen Sheba and the men of Nineveh mentioned here, in the same exact context. The men of Nineveh are not "gods", and there is no reason to assume that the Queen would be "a goddess".

Taking everything into consideration, Copen has given a clear and concise explanation. :tu:

When were Solomon and the queen of Sheba around? If Jesus is mentioning this in his life time, would he mean the men of Nineveh or The Queen of Sheba could rise again and judge? How would they be capable of condemning 'this' generation? Which generation do you think he meant? Was it his own, and these Pharisees in which he was speaking to? I might be slow, but how could they be given the authority to condemn? Isn't that privilege for God alone, and wouldn't these people be dead?

Edited by SpiritWriter, 29 November 2012 - 04:23 AM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#5    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:28 AM

View PostCopen, on 29 November 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Hi SpiritWriter:
Just going to give you my view point. May not be right; but here goes.
Jesus was talking to the evil an adulterous generation of scribes and Pharisees. They asked for a sign and He gave the prophecy of His impending death in the grave 3 days and 3 nights as the only sign they would be given. Then Jesus tells them, (concerning signs), that men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment against that present generation of scribes and Pharisees for after hearing Jonah preach, they of Niveveh repented. But a greater than Jonah, (who was Jesus), was among them, (the scribes and Pharisees) and they had not repented.

Then Jesus gives another example of Queen Sheba who had not seen a sign but traveled a great distance to hear the wisdom of Solomon ---- and a greater than Solomon, (Jesus), was among them and they did not hear His wisdom. The example of Queen Sheba would also condemn that generation of scribes and Pharisees in the Judgement.
God bless us all is my prayer

So you would say that even though they are mentioned back to back, the reference to "the sign of  himself being in the earth for three days" and the Queen "coming from the uttermost parts of the earth." are un-related?

I still don't see how she would be given the authority to judge, if she was not a part of that generation at all... its as if she would have to come back from the dead just as he had done... not that I think the Queen of Sheba was a Goddess, but that "The Queen of the South" could be a stand in for one of the Goddesses Solomon revered..

or a prophetic word from our Lord about something else...


Blessings in Christ

Edited by SpiritWriter, 29 November 2012 - 04:35 AM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#6    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:42 AM

King James Version words it as 'uttermost'








Matthew 12:42

King James Version (KJV)

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#7    Karlis

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:10 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 29 November 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

When were Solomon and the queen of Sheba around? If Jesus is mentioning this in his life time, would he mean the men of Nineveh or The Queen of Sheba could rise again and judge? How would they be capable of condemning 'this' generation? Which generation do you think he meant? Was it his own, and these Pharisees in which he was speaking to? I might be slow, but how could they be given the authority to condemn? Isn't that privilege for God alone, and wouldn't these people be dead?
Neither the people of Nineveh nor the Queen will "pass judgement" on anyone, nor will they be given any authority to condemn.

Jesus was telling the unbelieving Jews that “at the resurrection to judgement”, the belief of the men of Nineveh will condemn the unbelief of those who rejected Jesus.


#8    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:38 AM

View PostKarlis, on 29 November 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Neither the people of Nineveh nor the Queen will "pass judgement" on anyone, nor will they be given any authority to condemn.

Jesus was telling the unbelieving Jews that “at the resurrection to judgement”, the belief of the men of Nineveh will condemn the unbelief of those who rejected Jesus.

Well, that is what it says in the scripture does it not?



42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

^^isn't that what it says? I see it right there....

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#9    eight bits

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:52 AM

The reference (also found at Luke 11: 31)  is pretty clearly about the Queen of Sheba's visit to Solomon, 1 Kings 10: 1-13, especially verse 9 where her praise includes:

Blessed be the LORD, your God, who has been pleased to place you on the throne of Israel. In his enduring love for Israel, the LORD has made you king to carry out judgment and justice.

(The same story appears with only small differences in 2 Chronicles 9: 1ff.)

So, she comes up in Matthew and Luke because Jesus is speaking of a last judgment at the end of days. The passage is especially interesting in Matthew because he is speaking to Pharisees, and Jesus endorses one of their beliefs about the end of days, that righteous Gentiles, like the Queen, will rise from the dead just as Jews rise from the dead at that time.

This became a core teaching of Christianity when Pharisee Paul preached it to convert Gentiles. This crucial point of the passage is lost if "The Queen of the South" isn't a human being. As you may know, the Koran incorporates a story that Solomon had some suspicion that she wasn't, so he tested her, and found that she was (she didn't have hooves).

It is interesting that Luke omits the Pharisees both from this scene and from the nearby accusation scene (that Jesus exorcizes by the authority of demons). Writing years later than the first version, when the surviving church is largely Gentile, maybe Luke appreciates that playing up the conflict between the earthly Jesus and the Pharisees is counterproductive. The Pharisaic doctrine is the main reason a Jewish movement has any Gentiles in it at all. No sense stirring up questions about whether Jesus would approve.

The Jews of the canon, including New Testament founders of the Christian church, didn't worship goddesses, invoke them, or speak approvingly of their deeds. This is a defining feature of Judaism, which both Christianity and Islam adopted. Just like any other books, the Bible needs to be read with some sympathy for what the authors are trying to say.

There are plenty of other books, in circulation when these stories were written, where'll you'll find all the godess stories you could ever want. But Jewish and Jewish-succession literature is the wrong place for it.

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#10    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

further corresponding scripture: concerning the men of Nineveh



Jonah 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#11    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:19 AM

and

in 1 kings

The Queen of Sheba Visits Solomon

10 When the queen of Sheba heard about the fame of Solomon and his relationship to the Lord, she came to test Solomon with hard questions. 2 Arriving at Jerusalem with a very great caravan—with camels carrying spices, large quantities of gold, and precious stones—she came to Solomon and talked with him about all that she had on her mind. 3 Solomon answered all her questions; nothing was too hard for the king to explain to her. 4 When the queen of Sheba saw all the wisdom of Solomon and the palace he had built, 5 the food on his table, the seating of his officials, the attending servants in their robes, his cupbearers, and the burnt offerings he made at[a] the temple of the Lord, she was overwhelmed.
6 She said to the king, “The report I heard in my own country about your achievements and your wisdom is true. 7 But I did not believe these things until I came and saw with my own eyes. Indeed, not even half was told me; in wisdom and wealth you have far exceeded the report I heard. 8 How happy your people must be! How happy your officials, who continually stand before you and hear your wisdom! 9 Praise be to the Lord your God, who has delighted in you and placed you on the throne of Israel. Because of the Lord’s eternal love for Israel, he has made you king to maintain justice and righteousness.”

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#12    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:28 AM

and Luke 11

30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Edited by SpiritWriter, 29 November 2012 - 10:29 AM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#13    SpiritWriter

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:52 AM

View Posteight bits, on 29 November 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

The reference (also found at Luke 11: 31)  is pretty clearly about the Queen of Sheba's visit to Solomon, 1 Kings 10: 1-13, especially verse 9 where her praise includes:

Blessed be the LORD, your God, who has been pleased to place you on the throne of Israel. In his enduring love for Israel, the LORD has made you king to carry out judgment and justice.

(The same story appears with only small differences in 2 Chronicles 9: 1ff.)

So, she comes up in Matthew and Luke because Jesus is speaking of a last judgment at the end of days. The passage is especially interesting in Matthew because he is speaking to Pharisees, and Jesus endorses one of their beliefs about the end of days, that righteous Gentiles, like the Queen, will rise from the dead just as Jews rise from the dead at that time.

This became a core teaching of Christianity when Pharisee Paul preached it to convert Gentiles. This crucial point of the passage is lost if "The Queen of the South" isn't a human being. As you may know, the Koran incorporates a story that Solomon had some suspicion that she wasn't, so he tested her, and found that she was (she didn't have hooves).

** I didn't know that, interesting

It is interesting that Luke omits the Pharisees both from this scene and from the nearby accusation scene (that Jesus exorcizes by the authority of demons). Writing years later than the first version, when the surviving church is largely Gentile, maybe Luke appreciates that playing up the conflict between the earthly Jesus and the Pharisees is counterproductive. The Pharisaic doctrine is the main reason a Jewish movement has any Gentiles in it at all. No sense stirring up questions about whether Jesus would approve.

The Jews of the canon, including New Testament founders of the Christian church, didn't worship goddesses, invoke them, or speak approvingly of their deeds. This is a defining feature of Judaism, which both Christianity and Islam adopted. Just like any other books, the Bible needs to be read with some sympathy for what the authors are trying to say.

** King Solomon did invoke Goddesses, although the bible describes this as a sin and idol worship, but maybe in his 'wisdom' he saw the feminine aspect of God. Or he began to understand these things as he had many cultures within his kingdom
** I think the bible sometimes has remnants of omitted pieces, and it is ok to scrutinize as well as be sympathetic.


There are plenty of other books, in circulation when these stories were written, where'll you'll find all the godess stories you could ever want. But Jewish and Jewish-succession literature is the wrong place for it.

** but there were Jewish mystics as well as christian mystics that believe in the feminine aspect of the Godhead, and these are represented cross culturally in Goddesses and would not particularly denote 'idol worship' when viewed in this way
**I understand this form of thought is excluded in the mainstream texts, but think it could be possible for some references to be alluded to within the text - at least that is what I was thinking at the time I read the passage and this notion came to me concerning matt 12:42


Over all I just really thought it was interesting the way that it was worded in the King James Version. I am not arguing with you, I am sure the scriptures  are about the Queen of Sheba, but it is still food for thought...

again highlighting the similarities between 'the sign' of 'being in the center of the earth', and 'coming from the uttermost parts of the earth' as well as 'having the authority to condemn'...

***

38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

* I am not ignoring that The men of Nineveh were given the same authority. I am just highlighting the parts that had me wondering.


Peace.... :D

anyway.... just the way it is presented here had me thinking...

Edited by SpiritWriter, 29 November 2012 - 11:03 AM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#14    docyabut2

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

I think what Jesus was saying when the Jewish priests asked for a sigh,  only a foolish nation would asked more further proof , you believed in Johas and the people repenting turning to god  and the queen of sheba who came from a distant land to asked solomon of his wisdom, yet I will be in the earth three days. More or less you believed in Jonus and the wisdom of Solomon, but still refuse to believe me


#15    eight bits

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:33 PM

Quote

Peace....

anyway.... just the way it is presented here had me thinking...

Yes, SW. We're in agreement that we're not argiung with each other :).

It's a good thread. Thinking is good. Peace is, too.

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