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Ron Paul to Congress: Stop Worshipping Israel


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#121    MichaelW

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:32 PM

View PostYamato, on 19 December 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Trade is just another way of exercising freedom.

Market forces and freedom aren't exactly mutual Yam. Anyone that lives in a country with corporate monopolies controlling vital services will tell you this.

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What good is freedom if you don't use it?

Because "freedom" as an entity encompasses more than just trade. If we purely used trade as a definition of freedom, that would label every single country in the world bar North Korea as "free" when quite clearly, a lot of those countries aren't.

Freedom is as much about the right to choose as it is about the right to free speech, freedom of thought and association etc. Trade doesn't facilitate freedom. Otherwise places like China and Saudi Arabia would be considered free countries and they are not.

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If you're not even allowed to trade freely, that's all the evidence I need to determine someone is anything but free.  How vast a capacity to take freedom this much for granted can someone get?

Answer me this then. Would you consider the average person living in China free?

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#122    MichaelW

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:39 PM

View PostYamato, on 19 December 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

It will take 50-100 years to repair the oppression in the Middle East due to the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Considering most of Palestine is light years ahead of where North Korea is, I doubt it. But, entertain my curiosity. Explain why it will take a century for apparently backwards Palestine to catch up with Israel, or even other countries around it.

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North Korea will join the world marketplace in far less time than that.

Again, explain.


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The Koreas will unite, North Korea's economy will explode.

And South Korea's economy will implode. Assuming of course, the two Koreas will unite or the North Korean economy catches up to become equal of that of South Korea. But I doubt it. North Korea is firmly entrenched in its current state and it shows no signs whatsoever of changing.

And you still haven't answered any of my questions I posed in my last post.


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Trade is inseparable with freedom.

No it isn't. Otherwise Iran, China, Belarus, Singapore and Saudi Arabia would be considered free countries and they aren't.

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If you can't even choose what to buy with your own money, you don't live a life of freedom, you're a prisoner of the Man.

Being anti-establishment doesn't mean you know what "freedom" is.

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#123    Yamato

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:24 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 19 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Market forces and freedom aren't exactly mutual Yam. Anyone that lives in a country with corporate monopolies controlling vital services will tell you this.



Because "freedom" as an entity encompasses more than just trade. If we purely used trade as a definition of freedom, that would label every single country in the world bar North Korea as "free" when quite clearly, a lot of those countries aren't.

Freedom is as much about the right to choose as it is about the right to free speech, freedom of thought and association etc. Trade doesn't facilitate freedom. Otherwise places like China and Saudi Arabia would be considered free countries and they are not.



Answer me this then. Would you consider the average person living in China free?
With freedom comes risk management and responsibility, not risk protection and guarantees like we get from the gubmint.   The free market punishes people every day for screwing up.  The government rescues the irresponsible and punishes the successful.

China, free by my standards?  Of course not.  I think my standards of freedom are good enough for everyone, and if anyone in the world is freer than me, then that standard replaces mine and I'll support initiatives for getting mine up to theirs.  This is a spectrum as most things are.  It's not even a one-dimensional line, but a two dimensional field.   We can plot a point on it as to how free we really are and the ideal is to be as free as humanly possible.

Freedom encompasses a million times more than trade, as I said.   Trade is just a bare minimum and just a symptom of freedom, as I said.  And I can't even get that far with some people.   Even trade makes some people hostile and want to argue.

A corporation that becomes a monopoly because it serves the market more efficiently than a dozen smaller competitors isn't antithetical to freedom.   But it shouldn't be protected by government as "too big to fail" either.   Small entrants to the marketplace who are able to competitively advantage themselves with their strengths and take market share from that monopoly on the products and services they specialize in would always be an inevitability provided we don't have ridiculous legislature from the gubmint protecting those large corporations from their would-be competitors.

Freedom also means free to succeed.   You're free to compete, and you're free to dominate too if you do a good enough job.   This Statist mindset that's scared of success and must punish it with force control came from places in history I wouldn't wish to live in for a minute.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#124    Yamato

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:29 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 19 December 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Considering most of Palestine is light years ahead of where North Korea is, I doubt it. But, entertain my curiosity. Explain why it will take a century for apparently backwards Palestine to catch up with Israel, or even other countries around it.



Again, explain.




And South Korea's economy will implode. Assuming of course, the two Koreas will unite or the North Korean economy catches up to become equal of that of South Korea. But I doubt it. North Korea is firmly entrenched in its current state and it shows no signs whatsoever of changing.

And you still haven't answered any of my questions I posed in my last post.




No it isn't. Otherwise Iran, China, Belarus, Singapore and Saudi Arabia would be considered free countries and they aren't.



Being anti-establishment doesn't mean you know what "freedom" is.
It will take generations to cure the hatred and resentment that Israel's policies have exacted on these people.   They will have to die, their children will have to grow up, memories will have to fade into the history books.  Vanish from the pages of time, if you will.    There's too much hate and too many reasons to hate to expect this to tidy up in less than a generation.

North Koreans are suffering under a dictatorship they've been culled to love.  There isn't hate there even amidst the epidemic of starvation and oppression they live under.   They love who's starving them to death, which isn't so unlike my own country the way these Keynesians think.

Someone will have to explain how the South Korean economy will implode.  I don't have any reason to believe that will happen.   If they unite they just doubled their capacity to grow.   They will have new access to cheap labor, cheap manufacturing, cheap real estate, room to expand domestically, so long as world gobmints don't interfere with trade contracts and punish the Koreans for uniting.   But it's inevitable and all this fear mongering about North Korea is laughable.   If any American is actually scared of North Korea they really need to live a little and find some things actually worth being scared of.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#125    MichaelW

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:49 AM

View PostYamato, on 20 December 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

The free market punishes people every day for screwing up.

The free market isn't a be-all-end-all one-size-fits-all solution to every single problem on the entire planet Yam. I've told you this many, many times and yet you fail to take notice. A free market doesn't guarantee total freedom. That is my point and you have failed to see it.

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China, free by my standards?  Of course not.

Then why try to claim free trade and market forces are the great liberators? They are not. I used China as an example because of that very fact that it is an important economy globally and is an important trading partner to many countries in the world. Hell, NZ has a free trade agreement with the country which has so far produced mixed results but has not changed the fact that China is still an autocratic state.

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I think my standards of freedom are good enough for everyone.

That's a bit high and mighty isn't it, considering your standards of freedom are the freedom to, not the freedom from. And even then, this is only limited to trade and "the free market" genie.

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Freedom encompasses a million times more than trade, as I said.

That looks a lot like what I've been trying to get through to you Yam so at least some of my pestering is sinking in.

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Trade is just a bare minimum and just a symptom of freedom, as I said.

And yet this seems to be the only thing we're discussing here. And even then, it still requires the government's involvement.

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And I can't even get that far with some people.

Don't look at me. I've been the one trying to get across to you for the past two pages that trade isn't the be all and end all of what freedom is.

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A corporation that becomes a monopoly because it serves the market more efficiently than a dozen smaller competitors isn't antithetical to freedom.

Yes it is. If it becomes a monopoly, then there is no room for competition and therefore it makes that specific market unfree, if you get what I mean (which you won't). A free market is one where businesses compete directly and fairly with other businesses selling specific products and services and competitive prices and rates. Competition is what makes a free economy breathe. And what makes us, the consumer, more valuable.

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Freedom also means free to succeed.

But does it also mean free to express, associate etc?

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#126    MichaelW

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:04 AM

View PostYamato, on 20 December 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

It will take generations to cure the hatred and resentment that Israel's policies have exacted on these people.


Do you really honestly think that every Palestinian vehemently hates Israel in the same way that North Koreans hate the US? And what makes you think North Koreans, who are brainwashed, will readily dump what they've been taught all their lives from school and their parents and grandparents and welcome the Americans as friends?

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They will have to die, their children will have to grow up, memories will have to fade into the history books.

Did I read this correctly? You want to kill of millions of people? For their views? Isn't that a bit extreme?


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Vanish from the pages of time, if you will.

Gee, I wonder where I've heard this before.


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There's too much hate and too many reasons to hate to expect this to tidy up in less than a generation.

So killing a few million North Koreans is going to solve their problems and make them like the US as a result? Is that brain of yours firing on all cylinders Yam?


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North Koreans are suffering under a dictatorship they've been culled to love.  There isn't hate there even amidst the epidemic of starvation and oppression they live under.   They love who's starving them to death, which isn't so unlike my own country the way these Keynesians think.


Well, at least you've said something I can agree with thus far. Congrats.

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Someone will have to explain how the South Korean economy will implode.

In the event of probable unification, the new unified government will have to pay for the massive upgrade of North Korean infrastructure. This means upgrading and building all the roads in North Korea to the same standards as those in the South. Same applies for all utilities such as electricity, gas, water and sewage as well as rebuild and replace all the railways and rolling stock and upgrade all the water ports and air ports to South Korean standards.

That will cost hundreds of billions of dollars, if not trillions. Something South Koreans will pay for for decades to come. Hell, the Germans are still paying extra taxes to pay for the cost of their unification and the East German economy was only half that of the West German. The South Korean economy is at least 10x that of the North.


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If they unite they just doubled their capacity to grow.

The North couldn't grow if it can't get goods and people and utilities around its country efficiently and reliably. We're talking about a country where the power goes out every night for a few hours.


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They will have new access to cheap labor, cheap manufacturing, cheap real estate, room to expand domestically, so long as world gobmints don't interfere with trade contracts and punish the Koreans for uniting.

So you expect the world to sit back and watch as North Koreans are turned into economic slaves?


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If any American is actually scared of North Korea they really need to live a little and find some things actually worth being scared of.

People like you for a start.

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#127    Yamato

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:43 AM

There is no "North Korea" after Korea unites.

Everyone should be able to understand I'm not talking about "killing millions".

Again, trade is the minimal standard of having "freedom" in the world.   If you can't even trade, you're as good as a slave to the tyranny that restricts your freedom to even buy things with your own money.   How pathetic!  That's for oppressive governments like Israel, not for freedom-loving Americans like me.

If Palestinians don't hate Israel I would be shocked.   Again, the world is dying to be friends with the US, sometimes literally.   When the US government gets its head on straight and starts treating North Korea like a trading partner and not an enemy, they'll all turn into their southern counterparts when they get a taste of freedom for the first time.  

Human beings don't suddenly change just because we cross the magic lines drawn by the gubmint.   If one wants to put an end to bad government, free the people being oppressed by it.   Freedom is the greatest political reformer in the world.

Under the circumstances, I don't think that some Palestinians will be ready to forgive and forget any time soon, which is why I endorse sending an army of international peacekeepers into Israel and Palestine both.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#128    Yamato

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:21 AM

The free market is brutal, and runs employers out on their butts every working day of the year.   Democrats and Republicans and Bipartisans All, put your big girl panties on, sit up straight and learn to deal with it.   You'll be glad you did.   ;)

The free market has solutions to all of the problems that people love to cry about, and these are the just solutions because they punish bad people directly for their own actions, and to the measure of their wrongdoing.  

So it begs the question, my fellow Americans:  Why are we turning our backs on our rule of law and letting our government defile them?   Why do we trust our federal government to take heavy metal machines and giant explosives and go to foreign lands and mass murder terrorist "suspects" with impunity?   Why aren't we able to admit that this is terrorism?  

How about wearing that shoe on our own foot for a few miles and see how it fits us.   Let's bomb some American families...errr "suspects", and then get gabbing in our media about how intelligent and acceptable that is.  I would love to put the American punditry to that test!  It would be the best TV entertainment I've had in years, maybe ever.

There are no political excuses for starting violence in the world.   But if we can't even agree to the Golden Rule, what morals can we possibly have? When and how did this illegal, commercial, and perpetual warfare become morally acceptable in my country?  The only reason I can see is we've done it out of fear.   Fear and blood.  9/11 created a culture of fear (the whole point of committing terrorism) which led us into a severe overreaction that's insanely expensive, strategically counterproductive and grossly immoral.  

It's time to put an end to this racket.   And it's time to stop worshiping Israel.

And while we're discussing US foreign policy, the problem with the gun control advocates in my country is they run into the loving arms of the government to decide what to do with our weapons, which is about like trusting the little brother to be the babysitter for the older son.

Edited by Yamato, 20 December 2012 - 09:42 AM.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#129    AsteroidX

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:13 AM

Nice read above. nyone know why the video is gone. ny other more recent ones ?


#130    Yamato

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:37 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 20 December 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Nice read above. nyone know why the video is gone. ny other more recent ones ?
Zionist spam claiming copyright infringement?   How can Ron Paul not be Ron Paul's own content?  

I never received a violation notice on Youtube before I tried putting up a video about Palestinians.  This kind of censorship of all things anti-Israel seems epidemic.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#131    Yamato

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:39 AM

Sergeantpepper99's got his back:



"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#132    AsteroidX

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:40 AM

I havent experienced any censorship myself. Loss of Freedom for no reason yeah. I been that road however. Cant say I enjoyed it.


#133    acidhead

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:40 AM

Love Ron Paul.

He's the man of the century IMO.

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#134    sam12six

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:55 AM

View PostYamato, on 20 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

The free market is brutal, and runs employers out on their butts every working day of the year.   Democrats and Republicans and Bipartisans All, put your big girl panties on, sit up straight and learn to deal with it.   You'll be glad you did.   ;)

The free market has solutions to all of the problems that people love to cry about, and these are the just solutions because they punish bad people directly for their own actions, and to the measure of their wrongdoing.  

We've tried unregulated free market policies in the early days of the country. The result is huge monopolies that crush the little man (and hence, crush opportunity) - cattle barons and company towns are the result of too little government regulation.

I definitely believe in a free market, but not totally free - free within reasonable limits.

View PostYamato, on 20 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

So it begs the question, my fellow Americans:  Why are we turning our backs on our rule of law and letting our government defile them?   Why do we trust our federal government to take heavy metal machines and giant explosives and go to foreign lands and mass murder terrorist "suspects" with impunity?   Why aren't we able to admit that this is terrorism?  

How about wearing that shoe on our own foot for a few miles and see how it fits us.   Let's bomb some American families...errr "suspects", and then get gabbing in our media about how intelligent and acceptable that is.  I would love to put the American punditry to that test!  It would be the best TV entertainment I've had in years, maybe ever.

There are no political excuses for starting violence in the world.   But if we can't even agree to the Golden Rule, what morals can we possibly have? When and how did this illegal, commercial, and perpetual warfare become morally acceptable in my country?  The only reason I can see is we've done it out of fear.   Fear and blood.  9/11 created a culture of fear (the whole point of committing terrorism) which led us into a severe overreaction that's insanely expensive, strategically counterproductive and grossly immoral.  

It's time to put an end to this racket.   And it's time to stop worshiping Israel.

Agreed. Our (by which I mean those who speak for us) hypocrisy is astounding. The Taliban were patriots and heroes when defending themselves from Russia - hell, even Rambo enjoyed their company. Using the same tactics for the same purpose when WE come rolling in to take over? Oh, that's terrorism.

View PostYamato, on 20 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

And while we're discussing US foreign policy, the problem with the gun control advocates in my country is they run into the loving arms of the government to decide what to do with our weapons, which is about like trusting the little brother to be the babysitter for the older son.

The real problem is that so many people believe the government should take away guns to protect us from each other while the founding fathers wanted us to have guns to protect ourselves from the government.


#135    acidhead

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:26 AM

View Postsam12six, on 25 December 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

We've tried unregulated free market policies in the early days of the country. The result is huge monopolies that crush the little man (and hence, crush opportunity) - cattle barons and company towns are the result of too little government regulation.


I believe if you search back it was GOV intervention which created those monopolies.

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