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Israel pushes plans for 3000 new settlements


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#136    Yamato

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:18 PM

View PostSaru, on 12 December 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

That depends on how you define anti-Israel.

If by anti-Israel you mean that you expect to openly attack, criticise and defame Israel at every opportunity, to make inflammatory and derogatory remarks about the country in discussions or to bait and attack other members who happen to be from Israel, to promote an anti-Israeli agenda on the forums via your choice of comments, source links, videos and topics - obviously that is not fine.

* snip *

Edited by Saru, 12 December 2012 - 01:35 PM.
Better to discuss this in PMs.

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#137    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:25 PM

Best to have such discussions in private I'd think mate.


#138    Yes_Man

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:37 PM

Yeah you don't want to post stuff like that on where everyone can see


#139    WHO U KIDDIN

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:10 PM

View Postand then, on 12 December 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

Now you are beginning to see the reality of the human condition.  Until now you've been laboring under some illusion that we aren't all the same - that one group is somehow innocent.  One thing I can assure you of, WHO is that I no longer get angry about this situation.  What will be will be.  I don't understand how anyone can look at the problem and think it's going to change or be made better by constantly demonizing one side or another though.  The only logical outcome is that Israel, through might of arms will survive until a coalition comes against it.  And before THAT happens there will need to be a calculation that either they will not use their nukes OR that for some reason those nukes don't matter so much.  Just a thought.....Can you think of another example anywhere on earth anytime in history where one group of people have been so universally hated?  I can't.

I’ve always known the reality of the human condition; I’m a New York Mets fan.  

I have no illusions about either side in this feud, one thing I can agree with you about is that both sides are equally responsible for the bloodshed. But since we cannot go back in time and change history we must find another solution besides devastating war.

Palestinian and Israeli leaders of reason need to be given a chance to compromise and reach agreements that may bring a lasting peace.  The groundwork has been put in place with Oslo/The Roadmap/Arab Peace Initiative.  These proposals offer a good starting point we just need a rousing and fair finale that all can cheer.    

Abbas is willing to lead the Palestinians to peace but for him to succeed against Meshal and Hamas, he needs an Israeli counterpart that is also willing but unfortunately Netanyahu is not the one. Netanyahu wants a Greater Israel and of course the Palestinians will not give up the West Bank to fulfill his wish.

For Israel to have peace they will need to recognize the two state solution based on 1967 borders.  Anything that attempts to disable this outcome is unacceptable to not just the Palestinians but to the worldwide community as evident by not just the post of most people in these forums but by recent UN actions on the matter.


#140    Br Cornelius

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:30 PM

ExpandmyMind and Who U Kiddin have expressed my position better than I could myself - thanks.
It takes time and energy to present the evidence which refutes the zionist propaganda and most of the time I don't have enough of either.

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#141    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 December 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

It takes time and energy to present the evidence which refutes the zionist propaganda and most of the time I don't have enough of either.

Br Cornelius

Me neither. It's seriously cutting into my study time.


#142    and then

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

View PostWHO U KIDDIN, on 12 December 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

I’ve always known the reality of the human condition; I’m a New York Mets fan.  

I have no illusions about either side in this feud, one thing I can agree with you about is that both sides are equally responsible for the bloodshed. But since we cannot go back in time and change history we must find another solution besides devastating war.

Palestinian and Israeli leaders of reason need to be given a chance to compromise and reach agreements that may bring a lasting peace.  The groundwork has been put in place with Oslo/The Roadmap/Arab Peace Initiative.  These proposals offer a good starting point we just need a rousing and fair finale that all can cheer.

Abbas is willing to lead the Palestinians to peace but for him to succeed against Meshal and Hamas, he needs an Israeli counterpart that is also willing but unfortunately Netanyahu is not the one. Netanyahu wants a Greater Israel and of course the Palestinians will not give up the West Bank to fulfill his wish.

For Israel to have peace they will need to recognize the two state solution based on 1967 borders.  Anything that attempts to disable this outcome is unacceptable to not just the Palestinians but to the worldwide community as evident by not just the post of most people in these forums but by recent UN actions on the matter.
A "final" peace initiative will probably be based on '67 but it will also have to clearly end the talk of right of return.  That is a red line for Israel for reasons I've mentioned many times.  Israel will be forced to give up the idea of Jerusalem as it's "undivided" capital.  Jerusalem will probably have to become an OPEN city that is managed by the UN.  Agreeing to the lines prior to '67 will leave Israel 9 miles wide at it's narrowest.  If an IDF presence is disallowed in the Jordan Valley then the IDF would have to be on constant alert for an attack that could cut the country in two.  I would love to see Netanyahu call Abbas, Meshaal and Haniya out and agree to these terms.  It would infuriate Bibi's constituency for a while and it would shut up his detractors in the world (for a while) but ultimately it would place the onus on the Palestinians to change their stance OR start attacking again.  IF they started attacking after being given everything they've asked for then it becomes rather obvious what the end game is here.

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#143    Black Red Devil

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:48 AM

View Postand then, on 12 December 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

A "final" peace initiative will probably be based on '67 but it will also have to clearly end the talk of right of return.  That is a red line for Israel for reasons I've mentioned many times.  Israel will be forced to give up the idea of Jerusalem as it's "undivided" capital.  Jerusalem will probably have to become an OPEN city that is managed by the UN.  Agreeing to the lines prior to '67 will leave Israel 9 miles wide at it's narrowest.  If an IDF presence is disallowed in the Jordan Valley then the IDF would have to be on constant alert for an attack that could cut the country in two.  I would love to see Netanyahu call Abbas, Meshaal and Haniya out and agree to these terms.  It would infuriate Bibi's constituency for a while and it would shut up his detractors in the world (for a while) but ultimately it would place the onus on the Palestinians to change their stance OR start attacking again.  IF they started attacking after being given everything they've asked for then it becomes rather obvious what the end game is here.

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#144    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:19 AM

When a land is completely unable to govern itself how is it going to prevent attacks?   Bombing police stations is no way to encourage a community to enforce its laws.  Bombing schools and killing parents and tearing apart families with all kinds of moral and human tragedies on a daily basis is no way to win the hearts and minds and the trust of a people.   That kind of policy will guarantee the opposite.

Looking at the disparity of power here, Israel fearing an attack from Palestine is like the USSR fearing an attack from Luxembourg.  Still, the 1967 borders are "indefensible" according to the Israeli regime so if that's what's being presented as a solution, the Israeli bureaucrats need to be convinced first or it's never gonna happen.

1947 borders, a cosmopolitan Jerusalem under international rule, full right of return to Palestine for all Palestinians, and a massive influx of international peacekeepers into Israel and Palestine both to keep the peace there for the next 100 years.   Hamas will need to throw out its charter.   Palestinian and Israeli bureaucrats will need to be jointly held accountable for attacks by their citizens on people of the other country when the international peacekeepers let something slip.  Israel can continue to be the Jewish Homeland however its bureaucrats want to define that idea but only do so within its own borders.    Both sides will get the peace and security, and more importantly civil liberties and human rights that they deserve.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#145    Codeblind

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:37 AM

My understanding of the conflict is that Zionism isn't interested in anything other than acquiring all of the land, as set out in the Torah under a fundamentalist perspective. The sooner that's accepted as fact the better, all this hope in a two state solution is waffle...the Jews have already made up their minds that the only solution is to wipe the Arabs on the map and completely destroy Gaza...you would think at least include a compromise as a possible solution, but no its a full on genocide and wholesale extermination of the Palestinian Arabs.

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#146    Erikl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:47 AM

Quote

It takes time and energy to present the evidence which refutes the zionist propaganda and most of the time I don't have enough of either.

You have know idea how much it saddens me and offends me to see "Zionism" being refered to as some of the evil "-isms" of the 20th century. I don't have much time to reply to all of the new posts here right now as I have a lot of work, but I'll just reply to the last bits.

Quote

My understanding of the conflict is that Zionism isn't interested in anything other than acquiring all of the land

You misunderstand the conflict. Israelis have a consensus that a Palestinian state should exist along side Israel. It is taught to our children in Israeli official education textbooks.

The Palestinian propaganda machine here is working over time to make you believe this is the case, while in the mean time, the Palestinian Authority is having some troubles keeping it's true agenda, as can been seen in the renewed Fatah emblem for it's 48th years birthday:

Posted Image

As you can see, the entire area that includes both Israel and the West Bank and Gaza is being included into their form of "Palestine".

Posted Image

Btw, 2012 - 48 = 1964, three years before the Six Days War when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza, and that allegedly started the conflict. Fatah and the PLO were created to liberate all of what they deem as Palestine, and they work to that end till this day.

The Palestinian propagnda machine and it's agents, attempt to deciet and trick us all that but in fact, if you examine the PLO's Ten Point Program from 1974, you can see it has an outstanding success:

Quote

The plan called for the establishment of a national authority "over every part of Palestinian territory that is liberated" with the aim of "completing the liberation of all Palestinian territory". The program implied that the liberation of Palestine may be partial (at least, at some stage), and though it emphasized armed struggle, it did not exclude other means. This allowed the PLO to engage in diplomatic channels, and provided validation for future compromises made by the Palestinian leadership.


The destruction of Israel and the creation of a Palestine state instead of Israel, is a Palestinian consensus. This is why they will never agree to relinquish flooding Israel with millions of refugees. This is why they'll never agree to any Jew living in their Palestine. This is why they'll never recognize Israel as the national home for the Jews. The only difference between the PLO and Hamas, is that the PLO has mastered the arts of diplomatic deciets, and is thus sneakier and as evident in this forum by some members, has far more supporters. Hamas is more outright and has no problem shouting it's master plan of eridicating Israel at any chance it can.

This is the true reason why the agents of Palestinian propaganda here work so hard to taint the entire creation of Israel, from Zionism to this day, as an historical sin. Because they know all too well that the true goal isn't some small piece of land for some poor, well-intentioned national movement. It's true goal is the eridacitation of Israel. And any true Palestinian supporter deep in his heart would actually want to see this through, no matter what they try to portray to the world.

*sits and wait for the usual "ooh Zionist propaganda" excuse blah blah* :rolleyes:


Quote

as set out in the Torah under a fundamentalist perspective
Wrong. Zionism was a secular movement. Was dominated by socialists. The Kibbutz, Labour party, etc., - were all socialist in nature. Until 1977, all of the coalition and all of the governments of Israel were lead by the Labour party and by left-leaning parties.

Even today, only third of the settlers are religious Zionists. The rest are secular Israelis. And a third are ultra-orthodox anti-Zionist Chasidic Jews who moved there for financial reasons (it's cheap and still close to Israel's centre).

Posted Image

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#147    and then

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:23 AM

View PostYamato, on 13 December 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

When a land is completely unable to govern itself how is it going to prevent attacks?   Bombing police stations is no way to encourage a community to enforce its laws.  Bombing schools and killing parents and tearing apart families with all kinds of moral and human tragedies on a daily basis is no way to win the hearts and minds and the trust of a people.   That kind of policy will guarantee the opposite.

Looking at the disparity of power here, Israel fearing an attack from Palestine is like the USSR fearing an attack from Luxembourg.  Still, the 1967 borders are "indefensible" according to the Israeli regime so if that's what's being presented as a solution, the Israeli bureaucrats need to be convinced first or it's never gonna happen.

1947 borders, a cosmopolitan Jerusalem under international rule, full right of return to Palestine for all Palestinians, and a massive influx of international peacekeepers into Israel and Palestine both to keep the peace there for the next 100 years.   Hamas will need to throw out its charter.   Palestinian and Israeli bureaucrats will need to be jointly held accountable for attacks by their citizens on people of the other country when the international peacekeepers let something slip.  Israel can continue to be the Jewish Homeland however its bureaucrats want to define that idea but only do so within its own borders. Both sides will get the peace and security, and more importantly civil liberties and human rights that they deserve.
As soon as right of return is implemented there would no longer be any reason for peacekeepers.  IF Israelis agree to that, it means they have given up and surrendered their land to their enemies.  They will have decided to live as second class citizens in their ancient homeland.  Israel would no longer be a problem for the world - it would just be the 23rd  Arab State.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#148    Erikl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:45 AM

and then, it some times astonishing to see how the agents of Palestinian propaganda simply ignore hard questions that basically refute their entire world view. They'll just brush it all under "zionist propaganda" or something of the sort.

Let's assume that they truly believe the PA want peace and that Israel is the wrong here. Here are three paradoxes that they cannot solve:
1- How come the PA and virtually all Palestinians insist on the right of return of millions of third and fourth generation "refugees" (Palestinians being the only case of non-naturalized refugees for some reason) into Israel, not a Palestinian state?
2- How come Jews shouldn't be allowed to live in the West Bank under Palestinian rule? why insisting on Jew-clean Palestinian state? Jews make no demographic threats as their population growth is slower than Palestinians. And Israel is a home to more than 1.5 million Israeli Palestinians. Why the opposite, or the a Jewish minority in a Palestinian state, can't happen?
3- Why won't they accept UN Resolution 181(II) for partition of the land to two states - Arab and Jewish? As long as they do not accept Israel as a Jewish state (in the same way Norway is a Norwegian state or Italy is an Italian state), coupled with their on going persistence on Israel accepting some 4 million "refugees" as citizens, it's quite obvious what's their goal here. You don't have to be a braniac to figure it out.

All of these simple, yet dramatic questions, cannot be answered simply because any rational, sane person understands that a peace under these conditions is no peace, just a way to upgrade Palestinian strategic position to such a way as they could destroy Israel without it being able to put up a fight.

Posted Image

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#149    and then

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:33 AM

View PostErikl, on 13 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

and then, it some times astonishing to see how the agents of Palestinian propaganda simply ignore hard questions that basically refute their entire world view. They'll just brush it all under "zionist propaganda" or something of the sort.

Let's assume that they truly believe the PA want peace and that Israel is the wrong here. Here are three paradoxes that they cannot solve:
1- How come the PA and virtually all Palestinians insist on the right of return of millions of third and fourth generation "refugees" (Palestinians being the only case of non-naturalized refugees for some reason) into Israel, not a Palestinian state?
2- How come Jews shouldn't be allowed to live in the West Bank under Palestinian rule? why insisting on Jew-clean Palestinian state? Jews make no demographic threats as their population growth is slower than Palestinians. And Israel is a home to more than 1.5 million Israeli Palestinians. Why the opposite, or the a Jewish minority in a Palestinian state, can't happen?
3- Why won't they accept UN Resolution 181(II) for partition of the land to two states - Arab and Jewish? As long as they do not accept Israel as a Jewish state (in the same way Norway is a Norwegian state or Italy is an Italian state), coupled with their on going persistence on Israel accepting some 4 million "refugees" as citizens, it's quite obvious what's their goal here. You don't have to be a braniac to figure it out.

All of these simple, yet dramatic questions, cannot be answered simply because any rational, sane person understands that a peace under these conditions is no peace, just a way to upgrade Palestinian strategic position to such a way as they could destroy Israel without it being able to put up a fight.
I think it all stems from a view that Israel never had - never will have legitimacy in the eyes of the world.  But it's rare for anyone who debates this to be honest about it.  They just keep throwing up excuses that eventually get back to right of return and indefensible borders.  I think it's a way to rationalize the destruction of the State without having to advocate for it publicly.  I read yesterday of something that really made me sad and kind of afraid at the same time.  Jews in Norway being warned not to wear the kippah or Magen David in public.  AND the Norwegian government being silent on the issue.  But this time it will be different than the '30s.  The whole world will have to declare itself if this crime is to be attempted again.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#150    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:11 AM

View Postand then, on 13 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

As soon as right of return is implemented there would no longer be any reason for peacekeepers.  IF Israelis agree to that, it means they have given up and surrendered their land to their enemies.  They will have decided to live as second class citizens in their ancient homeland.  Israel would no longer be a problem for the world - it would just be the 23rd  Arab State.
2nd class to whom?   What does ancient have to do with it?   How would a Jewish State be Arab?

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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