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Israel pushes plans for 3000 new settlements


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#151    Erikl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:24 AM

View PostYamato, on 13 December 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

2nd class to whom?   What does ancient have to do with it?   How would a Jewish State be Arab?

Please check the condition of minorities in the Arab world.

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#152    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostErikl, on 13 December 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

and then, it some times astonishing to see how the agents of Palestinian propaganda simply ignore hard questions that basically refute their entire world view. They'll just brush it all under "zionist propaganda" or something of the sort.

Let's assume that they truly believe the PA want peace and that Israel is the wrong here. Here are three paradoxes that they cannot solve:
1- How come the PA and virtually all Palestinians insist on the right of return of millions of third and fourth generation "refugees" (Palestinians being the only case of non-naturalized refugees for some reason) into Israel, not a Palestinian state?
2- How come Jews shouldn't be allowed to live in the West Bank under Palestinian rule? why insisting on Jew-clean Palestinian state? Jews make no demographic threats as their population growth is slower than Palestinians. And Israel is a home to more than 1.5 million Israeli Palestinians. Why the opposite, or the a Jewish minority in a Palestinian state, can't happen?
3- Why won't they accept UN Resolution 181(II) for partition of the land to two states - Arab and Jewish? As long as they do not accept Israel as a Jewish state (in the same way Norway is a Norwegian state or Italy is an Italian state), coupled with their on going persistence on Israel accepting some 4 million "refugees" as citizens, it's quite obvious what's their goal here. You don't have to be a braniac to figure it out.

All of these simple, yet dramatic questions, cannot be answered simply because any rational, sane person understands that a peace under these conditions is no peace, just a way to upgrade Palestinian strategic position to such a way as they could destroy Israel without it being able to put up a fight.

1. I would consider a child born in a refugee camp to be a refugee. Also, a 'just solution to the refugee crisis' in past negotiations has been put forward as 'reparations' to those families who lost their homes and land. If any peace was to be settled on, it would not involve all refugees (though possibly some) returning to their lands.

2. Why did you lie in this statement. We both know (and you have posted as much in the past week) that Jewish birth rates in the Occupied West Bank are greater than Palestinian. This is besides the point. The Zionists in the West Bank are invaders. It is illegal under international law to allow the transfer of civilian population to any occupied territory or war zone. They are required to leave under international law, regardless of what you, I or any Palestinian might think on the matter. And I'm fairly certain that you understand quite clearly the dangers of allowing a group of invading Zionists to live amongst their Occupied. You expect the Palestinians to just ignore the past half a century?

3. Norway isn't a Norwegian State and Italy isn't an Italian State. This would be racist, xenophobic, bigoted, whatever you want to call it. Britain isn't a 'white' state, Italy isn't a 'catholic' State, India isn't a 'Hindu' state, etc. It would discriminate against any of the population who did not identify themselves as such. And Palestinians will never recognise Israel's RIGHT to exist. Of course not. If Israel had been formed in the north of Scotland, I would never recognise their RIGHT to exist. Although there are none amongst the serious negotiators who have not recognised the reality of their existence. Even the PLO recognised this (and, actually, their 'right to exist'). This fantasy recognition is completely unheard of in international politics, and is merely used as a tool by the Israeli governments of past and present to stall the non existent Peace Process and continue building settlements on another people's land. Show me another country on this planet who has had to recognise another's right to exist. It's absurd. Even Gandhi did not recognise Pakistan's RIGHT to exist.

And why would you bring up that Resolution? Would Israel abide by that now? Considering that they won't even give the Palestinians a home in half of the proposed land, I highly doubt it.

All of these questions have been answered countless times all over the World. Your pretense that they somehow have not is disingenuous to say the least.


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Fatah and the PLO were created to liberate all of what they deem as Palestine, and they work to that end till this day.

Erm, of course they were. They were mostly all refugees forced from their homes and barred from returning, witnessing a group of European immigrants populating their land. The second part of that statement is completely untrue, as past negotiations have quite clearly shown.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 13 December 2012 - 11:44 AM.


#153    and then

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:47 AM

View PostYamato, on 13 December 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

2nd class to whom?   What does ancient have to do with it?   How would a Jewish State be Arab?
I realize that we rarely agree on this issue, Yam but really?  First of all, for a Zionist the connection to the geographic location is Holy - transcendent even.  But that aside, the issue is something I have explained in a limited way many times.  The entire REASON for the creation of the State of Israel was the concept of a Jewish Homeland.  A place where they could not have to be worried they would be pushed out ever again.  Unless you plan to deny that this was their history for a couple of millennia then you can understand why they might desire such a thing, no?  Israel was formed as a democracy and in spite of all rhetoric to the contrary it is the strongest example of democracy in that region - indeed in many parts of the world.  So if Israel is to remain true to democratic principles then the demographics of the country matter a great deal in determining the character of the nation.  If right of return is approved then with a couple of generations "Israel" would be a majority Arab/Muslim State.  Non Muslims in Muslim States are considered second class citizens at best.  At worst you will see actions (by the governments) like the aftermath of the '67 war where whole Jewish communities were pushed out and their possessions and land seized with no restitution.  It is dishonest to act as though these issues are not real and that there is no historical precedent for justifying the way Jews feel about their country.  In Norway today for example, the Norwegians are allowing a minority (one hopes) of it's citizens to make life so difficult for Jews that very soon the country will be Judenrein.  And THAT from a western, progressive democracy.  Call it what you will but Europe is really beginning to resemble the old black and white images of the '30s again.  Watching it from the outside it's like watching a horror movie plot unfolding.  You want to scream at the characters to wake up, look around before it's too late.  Man, you can hold any political position you like about the State of Israel but don't kid yourself that they will go quietly again.  The whole world will burn before that happens.  And it won't be the victims fault, no matter how many people say it is.  I respect your opinion and right to disagree but I won't argue this with you so please keep your response as even toned as I have, okay?

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#154    Erikl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:30 PM

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1. I would consider a child born in a refugee camp to be a refugee. Also, a 'just solution to the refugee crisis' in past negotiations has been put forward as 'reparations' to those families who lost their homes and land. If any peace was to be settled on, it would not involve all refugees (though possibly some) returning to their lands.


Tell that to the Palestinians. I don't know if you are aware, but you're quoting Israeli stance on how the matter should be solved. Palestinian consensus is that they should return to their homes in "Palestine" (ie Israel).
As for a child born in a refugee camp - why would someone be born there, and not allowed to settle elsewhere in the country he was born? why wouldn't he be given citizenship? that's unheared of, regardless of what you consider. After WW2 there were million of refugees, including in the Middle East, and the only ones to be exculded from the regular UN treatment of refugees were the Palestinians. Why?

Let's break your Palestinian propaganda in section 2 to several parts, as the lies there are growing deeper and deeper:

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2. Why did you lie in this statement. We both know (and you have posted as much in the past week) that Jewish birth rates in the Occupied West Bank are greater than Palestinian.

They aren't. They are about the same. Jews there comprise 17% of the population, and anyhow, should a Palestinian state exist, millions of Palestinians would come and those 350,000-500,000 Jews wouldn't count.
If you consider all the territory the settlements themselves are built on, it's nothing of the entire area. The reason they now take more space is of security measures needed for them. In a Palestinian state, where they'd be equal citizens, none of these security measures would be needed.

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This is besides the point. The Zionists in the West Bank are invaders.

there we have it - the core base for your entire world view. Let's be honest, it's not only Zionists in the West Bank - judging from the tone and content of your previous posts, it's quite easy to conclude that the entire Zionist enterprise is an invasion and a sin.

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It is illegal under international law to allow the transfer of civilian population to any occupied territory or war zone.
They are required to leave under international law, regardless of what you, I or any Palestinian might think on the matter.

Yet they were not transferred, they moved there themselves. As opposed to what you believe, Israel doesn't engage in "population engineering" or whatever you'll call the projects in the USSR and Nazi Germany. Plus, because of the special legal condition of the territories, being that they are DISPUTED TERRITORIES, and their future isn't at all clear but should be negotiated between the two claimers, that law doesn't apply. Plus, that law from the Geneva covenant was to be applied to lands grabbed in offensive war, and were created directly as a result of Nazi behaviour during WW2 in Poland and Czechoslovakia. Israel got the West Bank in what was acknowledged by the international community and most consensus historians as a defensive war. Being that it's a common lie issued by the Palestinian propaganda, I can expect you start quoting all sorts of sources against it, and claim that Israel attacked first. I would reply that Israel had a casus belli when Egypt put a naval blockade on our southern port, but both of these claims have weaker relavance than to the fact that on the West Bank front, Jordan attacked first, despite of Israeli warnings via diplomatic channels.

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And I'm fairly certain that you understand quite clearly the dangers of allowing a group of invading Zionists to live amongst their Occupied. You expect the Palestinians to just ignore the past half a century?


No, I do not - as I expect that a real peace will include Palestinian acceptance that Jews used to live in what is now the West Bank for centuries, and were all banished into Israel back in 1948. Also, just as I, as an Israeli, doesn't treat Israeli Palestinians as if they were terrorists, but they are full citizens of the State of Israel, so should the Palestinian government treat it's Jewish minority.

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3. Norway isn't a Norwegian State and Italy isn't an Italian State. This would be racist, xenophobic, bigoted, whatever you want to call it. Britain isn't a 'white' state, Italy isn't a 'catholic' State, India isn't a 'Hindu' state, etc. It would discriminate against any of the population who did not identify themselves as such. And Palestinians will never recognise Israel's RIGHT to exist. Of course not. If Israel had been formed in the north of Scotland, I would never recognise their RIGHT to exist. Although there are none amongst the serious negotiators who have not recognised the reality of their existence. Even the PLO recognised this (and, actually, their 'right to exist'). This fantasy recognition is completely unheard of in international politics, and is merely used as a tool by the Israeli governments of past and present to stall the non existent Peace Process and continue building settlements on another people's land. Show me another country on this planet who has had to recognise another's right to exist. It's absurd. Even Gandhi did not recognise Pakistan's RIGHT to exist.

And to that, my dear Palestinian propagandist, I do not even need to reply. You completely accept the fact that Jews, as an ethno-religious group, not simply a religion, do not deserve the right of self-determination in a place that the international community has ratified numerous times.
Israel's insistence on Palestinian's recognition isn't out of the sky Israeli ego. It is because we want to see this conflict ends. We know about the 10 points PLO program, we know that Palestinians teach their children Israel shouldn't exist, we know about the anti-Semitic propaganda. And we want it to end, to co-exist in peace with two states solution. Being that the Palestinians are the ones who call for Israel's destruction, being that the Palestinians are the ones who want a new state, and being that they are the ones who didn't accept the two states solution to being with (Resolution 181), then the burden of proof is on them.

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And why would you bring up that Resolution? Would Israel abide by that now? Considering that they won't even give the Palestinians a home in half of the proposed land, I highly doubt it.
Would you give up with the Palestinian propaganda? They are the ones who didn't bind the first time it was issued, and started a civil war that escalated into a full out blown war. Last time that happened, they lost. I'm sorry but what kind of logic is that, that the aggressor which loses then shall be compensated? Plus, the fact Palestinians rejected Resolution 181 is the exact explanation, as I've given above, to why they need to prove that they now accpet it, by recognizing Israel's right to exist.

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All of these questions have been answered countless times all over the World. Your pretense that they somehow have not is disingenuous to say the least.
No they weren't. You simply layed out your ideology again, not answered any of them. Some times you gave here out right lies, straight from the textbooks of the Palestinian propaganda. Some of your sentences here are actually a good example of why the conflict will persist.

Edited by Erikl, 13 December 2012 - 12:31 PM.

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#155    Erikl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

View PostYamato, on 13 December 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Looking at the disparity of power here, Israel fearing an attack from Palestine is like the USSR fearing an attack from Luxembourg.

Open up a map of Israel and the territories, and then we'll talk.

Also, Israelis are 8 million (including our Palestinian citizens), Palestinian territories are right now 3.5 million are are expected to accept more than 4 million refugees. That mean 8 million against 7.5 million. What was it again, Luxemburg and the USSR?

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#156    Br Cornelius

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:05 PM

I have a right of return to Ireland - as do millions of other people of Irish decent. I may take that up, but it certainly isn't the norm.
It is the Palestinian Authority who would have to accomdate them and provide them with a living - I suspect there would not be the stampede which is claimed here.

It is an automatic right in most nation states to allow its expatriate decendents to return to their home of origin - if and when the Palestinian state becomes a reality it is not for Israel to decide whether this right should be extended to expatriate citizens.

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#157    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:08 PM

View PostErikl, on 13 December 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Please check the condition of minorities in the Arab world.

Thanks,
I'm asking about Israel not the Arab world.  

There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian".   Israelis don't own nor describe Palestinians.  

Since you're actually talking about Arabs, what you mean to say is Arab Israelis.

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#158    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:09 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 December 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

I have a right of return to Ireland - as do millions of other people of Irish decent. I may take that up, but it certainly isn't the norm.
It is the Palestinian Authority who would have to accomdate them and provide them with a living - I suspect there would not be the stampede which is claimed here.

It is an automatic right in most nation states to allow its expatriate decendents to return to their home of origin - if and when the Palestinian state becomes a reality it is not for Israel to decide whether this right should be extended to expatriate citizens.

Br Cornelius
Principle, stampede or not.

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#159    Erikl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:10 PM

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It is the Palestinian Authority who would have to accomdate them and provide them with a living - I suspect there would not be the stampede which is claimed here.

Exactly :tu: .

Problem is, they want right of return onto Israel. No Palestinian leader is seriously telling their people they will not be able to fullfil that right. If anything, they elevated that right into being "sacred", thus making the conflict unsolvable with Israel's existence.

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#160    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:13 PM

View PostErikl, on 13 December 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Open up a map of Israel and the territories, and then we'll talk.

Also, Israelis are 8 million (including our Palestinian citizens), Palestinian territories are right now 3.5 million are are expected to accept more than 4 million refugees. That mean 8 million against 7.5 million. What was it again, Luxemburg and the USSR?
The regional and nuclear superpower against a population of civilians with a severe shortage of rifles, ammunition, explosives, anti-tank weapons, building materials, consumer goods, and with no air force or navy.   A financial comparison would further provide the similar contrasts.

Okay, the map.
http://ethicsbob.fil...lestine-map.jpg

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#161    Erikl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

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I'm asking about Israel not the Arab world.
No, you said:
"2nd class to whom? "

And I replied that minorities fared badly in most of the Arab countries. Israel is a democracy, thus if you flood it with an Arab majority they would just vote out Jews. Being that Palestinian agendas are currently fixated on replacing Israel, they would simply destroy Israel through it's democracy.

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There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian".   Israelis don't own nor describe Palestinians.  

Since you're actually talking about Arabs, what you mean to say is Arab Israelis.

Yes there are, as most Israeli citizens of Arab ethnicity identify themselves as Arab Palestinians by ethnicity. Unless you are attempting to create another Arab nation, a 24th one :P .

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#162    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

View PostErikl, on 13 December 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

No, you said:
"2nd class to whom? "

And I replied that minorities fared badly in most of the Arab countries. Israel is a democracy, thus if you flood it with an Arab majority they would just vote out Jews. Being that Palestinian agendas are currently fixated on replacing Israel, they would simply destroy Israel through it's democracy.



Yes there are, as most Israeli citizens of Arab ethnicity identify themselves as Arab Palestinians by ethnicity. Unless you are attempting to create another Arab nation, a 24th one :P .
500,000 Europeans could move to Palestine and so long as they don't mess with Israel, it matters nothing to me.  

There is no such thing as Israeli Palestinians.   Palestinians aren't Israelis and Israelis aren't Palestinians.  These are two nationalities and like all nationalities, they're mutually exclusive.  

If however, there are people living behind your walls with dual citizenship -- both Israeli and Palestinian, then that would be an exception, but I know of nobody fitting this description so whoever it is you're talking about, they don't verifiably exist.

Edited by Yamato, 13 December 2012 - 01:25 PM.

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#163    and then

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostYamato, on 13 December 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

500,000 Europeans could move to Palestine and so long as they don't mess with Israel, it matters nothing to me.  

There is no such thing as Israeli Palestinians.   Palestinians aren't Israelis and Israelis aren't Palestinians.  These are two nationalities and like all nationalities, they're mutually exclusive.  

If however, there are people living behind your walls with dual citizenship -- both Israeli and Palestinian, then that would be an exception, but I know of nobody fitting this description so whoever it is you're talking about, they don't verifiably exist.
Yam do you agree that Israel has a right to exist as a State of Jewish character?  Since it is irrefutable that Arab nations have a culture that is essentially Arab -i.e. Muslim in nature, politics and religion then why is it so forbidden to even countenance the mere idea of a State that is based on Jewish character?  If that is racist/apartheid then why can't the same be said of the 22 Arab States that currently exist? I'm talking about simple fairness here.  It's like a NBPP member saying blacks CAN'T be racists because they have no power.  It's ridiculous.  The solutions that you and Ex have espoused lead to the disappearance of a State with a Jewish character.  Period.  It might take 20 or 30 years but the birthrate does the job that their militants can never do.  I make this prediction - no solution that includes anything more than some very minor scale of right to return will ever be approved.  Probably every thing else will be negotiable (unfortunately) but on THIS there cannot be a surrender.  Hamas and the PA know this and it will be easy to know when they have become serious about peace.  It will be the day that they tell their own citizens in Arabic that this issue is on the table.  Since it has been used as the bulwark of their rallying against Israel it would probably lead to violence - even against said leaders.

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#164    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:05 PM

View PostErikl, on 13 December 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

No, you said:
"2nd class to whom? "

And I replied that minorities fared badly in most of the Arab countries. Israel is a democracy, thus if you flood it with an Arab majority they would just vote out Jews. Being that Palestinian agendas are currently fixated on replacing Israel, they would simply destroy Israel through it's democracy.



Yes there are, as most Israeli citizens of Arab ethnicity identify themselves as Arab Palestinians by ethnicity. Unless you are attempting to create another Arab nation, a 24th one :P .
Yes I asked Israel is 2nd class to whom?   Nothing I said means that Israel would be 2nd class to anyone.

There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian".  You can only combine nationalities together if someone has dual citizenship and you don't seem to know of anyone like that, so I will continue to presume based on no evidence to the contrary that they don't exist.  Even if they do, it doesn't confer the point you're trying to make, muddying ethnic groups up with nationality.

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#165    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

View Postand then, on 13 December 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Yam do you agree that Israel has a right to exist as a State of Jewish character?  Since it is irrefutable that Arab nations have a culture that is essentially Arab -i.e. Muslim in nature, politics and religion then why is it so forbidden to even countenance the mere idea of a State that is based on Jewish character?  If that is racist/apartheid then why can't the same be said of the 22 Arab States that currently exist? I'm talking about simple fairness here.  It's like a NBPP member saying blacks CAN'T be racists because they have no power.  It's ridiculous.  The solutions that you and Ex have espoused lead to the disappearance of a State with a Jewish character.  Period.  It might take 20 or 30 years but the birthrate does the job that their militants can never do.  I make this prediction - no solution that includes anything more than some very minor scale of right to return will ever be approved.  Probably every thing else will be negotiable (unfortunately) but on THIS there cannot be a surrender.  Hamas and the PA know this and it will be easy to know when they have become serious about peace.  It will be the day that they tell their own citizens in Arabic that this issue is on the table.  Since it has been used as the bulwark of their rallying against Israel it would probably lead to violence - even against said leaders.
Did you not read where I said earlier that Israel will exist as a Jewish State, however it wants to define that, so long as it keeps it to itself?    What does that have to do with settlements on Palestinian territory?   And what does anything I said have to do with 2nd class Israel?

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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