254 replies to this topic

[and then]

Yamato, on 13 December 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Did you not read where I said earlier that Israel will exist as a Jewish State, however it wants to define that, so long as it keeps it to itself? What does that have to do with settlements on Palestinian territory?   And what does anything I said have to do with 2nd class Israel?

If an agreement could be reached where the settlements went away totally and every square inch of the land seized in '67 was returned to Palestinian control there would still be a majority of Palestinians who would want to continue the fight to "liberate" Palestine.  They want all the land, Yam.  And even if they could be convinced otherwise they still will insist on right of return of all refugees (and their descendants) to the land included as the State of Israel.  Why is that so difficult a concept to grasp? Right of return guarantees an Israeli State controlled by Arabs in a matter of years.  A Muslim State will never be equal for Jews - they will in fact be second class citizens.

[Yamato]

and then, on 13 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

If an agreement could be reached where the settlements went away totally and every square inch of the land seized in '67 was returned to Palestinian control there would still be a majority of Palestinians who would want to continue the fight to "liberate" Palestine.  They want all the land, Yam.  And even if they could be convinced otherwise they still will insist on right of return of all refugees (and their descendants) to the land included as the State of Israel.  Why is that so difficult a concept to grasp? Right of return guarantees an Israeli State controlled by Arabs in a matter of years.  A Muslim State will never be equal for Jews - they will in fact be second class citizens.

So you're just saying no to the two-state solution and annexing the West Bank and Gaza strip for Israel.  

Hopefully with what will need to be the entire world's efforts to put Palestine on the map, it should draw some tourism and trade from the world in the wake of its creation.  Palestine is nothing like it once was but it's still a beautiful place, and I suspect it will draw some internationals in to live there as residents once its statehood has begun.

International peacekeepers in the Holy Land will prevent the cataclysm you're preaching and prevent many other problems, and at the same time allow real progress to be made on the ground.   Israeli policy has made a two state solution impossible so it doesn't seem plausible for Israel to be an honest broker in that endeavor.   I think that pressure will have to be placed on the Israeli government from without, unless the Israeli people force change in their government and wind up being the greatest allies in implementing the TSS.  They'll say nobody could have predicted that, but it seems plausible to me.  Not every Israeli is a settler nor are they anti-Arab nor do they want Palestinian land stolen, developed or annexed by Israel.

Edited by Yamato, 13 December 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[Codeblind]

Erikl, on 13 December 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

You misunderstand the conflict. Israelis have a consensus that a Palestinian state should exist along side Israel. It is taught to our children in Israeli official education textbooks

I didn't say Israelis I said Zionists, as you pointed out the "Israelis" are a mixture of religious, secular and Orthodox, of which there is a growing opposition to Zionist Policy by Orthodox Jews in Israel and throughout the world http://nkusa.org/

What's interesting is for centuries the different faiths lived in relative peace on that land, and the moment Zionist show up with its Israel agenda the whole region erupts, Israel has Jew only settlements and continually provoke Palestinians, only yesterday a kid was shot at a checkpoint on his birthday, reports coming from Israel, state he was waving a toy gun around at a checkpoint, that's a UM topic all of it own if you ask me but eyewitness reports say he was shot 6 times for NO reason, we can assume this is the right report as in Gaza another report yesterday shows Israeli soldiers shooting at farmers and activists in a buffer zone for NO reason http://desde-palestina.blogspot.co.uk/

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As you can see, the entire area that includes both Israel and the West Bank and Gaza is being included into their form of "Palestine".

This is exactly the type of "propaganda" that Zionists use to justify what they are doing,.as I stated earlier for centuries the different faiths lived in relative peace so assuming a Palestinian state means genocide of Jews is hilarious.

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Btw, 2012 - 48 = 1964, three years before the Six Days War when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza, and that allegedly started the conflict. Fatah and the PLO were created to liberate all of what they deem as Palestine, and they work to that end till this day

The whole conflict is in response to the illegal partition and the increased Israeli movement that jumped the population  from around 15% at best to over 50. if your going to pick a moment in time to forge an agenda lets start at the beginning with the UK promises to Zionist to give them someone else's land and the US forcing the UN member states to agree.  .

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The Palestinian "propaganda" machine and it's agents, attempt to deceit and trick us all that but in fact, if you examine the PLO's Ten Point Program from 1974, you can see it has an outstanding success:

Seeing as Zionists control most of the major news groups and the blatant finger pointing you now do at others, it would be stupid to assume Zionism hasn't got its own "propaganda" machine, but it isn't as effective as we are fed up of hearing how we are all anti Semitic if we criticize Israel (sounds a bit familiar, don't we accuse radical Islam of that) or six million Jews are dead every five minutes http://www.thetruths....co.uk/?p=24369 I wonder what term we can use for that...? or how Israel constantly breaks international law using we have the right to defend but then goes on to provoke a reaction to justify its tyranny

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The destruction of Israel and the creation of a Palestine state instead of Israel, is a Palestinian consensus. This is why they will never agree to relinquish flooding Israel with millions of refugees. This is why they'll never agree to any Jew living in their Palestine. This is why they'll never recognize Israel as the national home for the Jews. The only difference between the PLO and Hamas, is that the PLO has mastered the arts of diplomatic deciets, and is thus sneakier and as evident in this forum by some members, has far more supporters. Hamas is more outright and has no problem shouting it's master plan of eridicating Israel at any chance it can.

This is the true reason why the agents of Palestinian propaganda here work so hard to taint the entire creation of Israel, from Zionism to this day, as an historical sin. Because they know all too well that the true goal isn't some small piece of land for some poor, well-intentioned national movement. It's true goal is the eridacitation of Israel. And any true Palestinian supporter deep in his heart would actually want to see this through, no matter what they try to portray to the world.

*sits and wait for the usual "ooh Zionist propaganda" excuse blah blah*

For anyone with half a brain will know its stupid to assume only Palestinians have a propaganda campaign, I put it to you that its because people are fed up with Israeli lies and the continual use of DU shells, white phosphorus, land grabbing in occupied territories all against international law and they now are ready to listen to the truth, the Jewish strangle hold of the guilt of nations for the holocaust is waning so have to label every criticism as "propaganda"...http://tinyurl.com/y97mpy4 .
A Palestinian land existed before this Israeli state, where Jews  Arabs and Christians lived in peace...so I don't really see where your coming from with this Palestine state stuff, the question is what did the Palestinian Arabs do to the Jews to warrant the land they lived on to be given to the Jews for the crimes of Hitler

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Wrong. Zionism was a secular movement. Was dominated by socialists. The Kibbutz, Labour party, etc., - were all socialist in nature. Until 1977, all of the coalition and all of the governments of Israel were lead by the Labour party and by left-leaning parties

Even today, only third of the settlers are religious Zionists. The rest are secular Israelis. And a third are ultra-orthodox anti-Zionist Chasidic Jews who moved there for financial reasons (it's cheap and still close to Israel's centre).

you mean they get free land stolen from the Palestinians,
what I find interesting is the denial that I do anything wrong and continually look for reasons to point the finger and justify what I do wrong..especially in the Israel/Palestinian conflict yes Palestinians are responsible for the things they do and the rhetoric they speak, but ultimately so are the Israelis, but lets just shed some light onto this, Israel with its military capability only perhaps the US, China and Russia are equal, then we have Gaza which is basically a prison, blockaded on all sides, routinely bombed to stunt any infrastructure growth, no army only a militia with a few giant fireworks that don't pose any real threat to anyone, I feel the rockets are more a show of defiance to show the people of Gaza, Hamas is doing something even if its futile. I like how the Israelis use the term defence...using the logic of Israel then surely Hamas has the right to defend itself when their soldiers shoot at civilians for no reason as I don't see the difference between rockets or rifles...and shouting PROPAGANDA is no better that shouting HOLOCAUST DENIER or ANTI SEMITIC they have but one agenda....to shut you the **** up.

Edited by Codeblind, 13 December 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[and then]

Codeblind, on 13 December 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I didn't say Israelis I said Zionists, as you pointed out the "Israelis" are a mixture of religious, secular and Orthodox, of which there is a growing opposition to Zionist Policy by Orthodox Jews in Israel and throughout the world http://nkusa.org/

What's interesting is for centuries the different faiths lived in relative peace on that land, and the moment Zionist show up with its Israel agenda the whole region erupts, Israel has Jew only settlements and continually provoke Palestinians, only yesterday a kid was shot at a checkpoint on his birthday, reports coming from Israel, state he was waving a toy gun around at a checkpoint, that's a UM topic all of it own if you ask me but eyewitness reports say he was shot 6 times for NO reason, we can assume this is the right report as in Gaza another report yesterday shows Israeli soldiers shooting at farmers and activists in a buffer zone for NO reason http://desde-palestina.blogspot.co.uk/





This is exactly the type of "propaganda" that Zionists use to justify what they are doing,.as I stated earlier for centuries the different faiths lived in relative peace so assuming a Palestinian state means genocide of Jews is hilarious.



The whole conflict is in response to the illegal partition and the increased Israeli movement that jumped the population  from around 15% at best to over 50. if your going to pick a moment in time to forge an agenda lets start at the beginning with the UK promises to Zionist to give them someone else's land and the US forcing the UN member states to agree.  .



Seeing as Zionists control most of the major news groups and the blatant finger pointing you now do at others, it would be stupid to assume Zionism hasn't got its own "propaganda" machine, but it isn't as effective as we are fed up of hearing how we are all anti Semitic if we criticize Israel (sounds a bit familiar, don't we accuse radical Islam of that) or six million Jews are dead every five minutes http://www.thetruths....co.uk/?p=24369 I wonder what term we can use for that...? or how Israel constantly breaks international law using we have the right to defend but then goes on to provoke a reaction to justify its tyranny


For anyone with half a brain will know its stupid to assume only Palestinians have a propaganda campaign, I put it to you that its because people are fed up with Israeli lies and the continual use of DU shells, white phosphorus, land grabbing in occupied territories all against international law and they now are ready to listen to the truth, the Jewish strangle hold of the guilt of nations for the holocaust is waning so have to label every criticism as "propaganda"...http://tinyurl.com/y97mpy4 .
A Palestinian land existed before this Israeli state, where Jews  Arabs and Christians lived in peace...so I don't really see where your coming from with this Palestine state stuff, the question is what did the Palestinian Arabs do to the Jews to warrant the land they lived on to be given to the Jews for the crimes of Hitler

you mean they get free land stolen from the Palestinians,
what I find interesting is the denial that I do anything wrong and continually look for reasons to point the finger and justify what I do wrong..especially in the Israel/Palestinian conflict yes Palestinians are responsible for the things they do and the rhetoric they speak, but ultimately so are the Israelis, but lets just shed some light onto this, Israel with its military capability only perhaps the US, China and Russia are equal, then we have Gaza which is basically a prison, blockaded on all sides, routinely bombed to stunt any infrastructure growth, no army only a militia with a few giant fireworks that don't pose any real threat to anyone, I feel the rockets are more a show of defiance to show the people of Gaza, Hamas is doing something even if its futile. I like how the Israelis use the term defence...using the logic of Israel then surely Hamas has the right to defend itself when their soldiers shoot at civilians for no reason as I don't see the difference between rockets or rifles...and shouting PROPAGANDA is no better that shouting HOLOCAUST DENIER or ANTI SEMITIC they have but one agenda....to shut you the **** up.

It's no longer the 1930's.   There are two sides to every issue and Israel can answer the claims with honesty and strength.  As to "shutting people up" when was that ever the case against those who defame Israel?  It's not difficult to build a case against someone that is uniformly hated.  But when they are capable of defending themselves against all comers, well, the hatred is a little, er, impotent.

[Codeblind]

and then, on 13 December 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

There are two sides to every issue

Exactly well consider everything spewed by Zionists has another side and perhaps the truth instead of just ranting your a hater, or your anti Semitic blah blah blah, deal with the ISSUES, and the accusations like the DU shells, White Phosphorus, illegal Jewish ONLY settlements on Israeli occupied Arab land all criminal according to international law..or the Israeli forces shooting at innocent people, I'm sick of hearing your a hater for questioning, and I'm even more sick of Zionist supporters refusing to acknowledge anything Israel does as wrong.....that alone raises an eyebrow.
According to Israeli logic Hamas has the right to now shell Israel because Israeli forces were shooting at farmers and activists across the border and especially after they murdered a 17yr old kid on his birthday for the fun of it....did you know the woman who shot the 17yr old received 10,000 new friends on facebook immediately after, I would hate to think it was because she killed that young man....but it does appear that way.
I certainly wont try to hide all the wrong things the PLO and Hamas have done, but I find it incredible that Zionists refuse to consider anything they do as wrong. Israel is entitled to defend itself...this is the justification slogan we hear ringing out across the world.... well Hamas also has the right using the same logic when they kill Palestinians and I think the link given where soldiers stop and start to fire at civilians for doing nothing wrong except for being in Gaza demonstrates this and is not just Palestinian "PROPAGANDA"..

Edited by Codeblind, 13 December 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[and then]

Codeblind, on 13 December 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Exactly well consider everything spewed by Zionists has another side and perhaps the truth instead of just ranting your a hater, or your anti Semitic blah blah blah, deal with the ISSUES, and the accusations like the DU shells, White Phosphorus, illegal Jewish ONLY settlements on Israeli occupied Arab land all criminal according to international law..or the Israeli forces shooting at innocent people, I'm sick of hearing your a hater for questioning, and I'm even more sick of Zionist supporters refusing to acknowledge anything Israel does as wrong.....that alone raises an eyebrow.
According to Israeli logic Hamas has the right to now shell Israel because Israeli forces were shooting at farmers and activists across the border and especially after they murdered a 17yr old kid on his birthday for the fun of it....did you know the woman who shot the 17yr old received 10,000 new friends on facebook immediately after, I would hate to think it was because she killed that young man....but it does appear that way.
I certainly wont try to hide all the wrong things the PLO and Hamas have done, but I find it incredible that Zionists refuse to consider anything they do as wrong. Israel is entitled to defend itself...this is the justification slogan we hear ringing out across the world.... well Hamas also has the right using the same logic when they kill Palestinians and I think the link given where soldiers stop and start to fire at civilians for doing nothing wrong except for being in Gaza demonstrates this and is not just Palestinian "PROPAGANDA"..

I saw the handgun in question on IBA news tonight.  It was an identical replica of a 1911 Colt .45.  If he pulled that on a cop anywhere in the US the outcome would probably have been the same.  But logic doesn't fit agenda driven rhetoric so I guess it doesn't matter.  Anyway, there will be no answers to this situation because both sides hate each other.  And while one side actually has a government that can enforce a peace agreement the other side has no control and cannot guarantee anything except continued bloodshed.  The arguments are endless and so will be the blood letting - it's sad but all too predictable.

[Codeblind]

and then, on 13 December 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

I saw the handgun in question on IBA news tonight.  It was an identical replica of a 1911 Colt .45.  If he pulled that on a cop anywhere in the US the outcome would probably have been the same.  But logic doesn't fit agenda driven rhetoric so I guess it doesn't matter.  Anyway, there will be no answers to this situation because both sides hate each other.  And while one side actually has a government that can enforce a peace agreement the other side has no control and cannot guarantee anything except continued bloodshed.  The arguments are endless and so will be the blood letting - it's sad but all too predictable.

If when the story is corroborated by Palestinians then fine I'll accept he was waving a gun around at a checkpoint....pretty stupid thing to do but still at least we wont have to rely on the likes of Mickey Rosenthal I think he's called the Israeli forces spokesman for the truth, as for both sides hate each other no that's not true at all, for centuries Jews, Arabs and Christians lived in peace before Zionism sort to steal the land and used the UK to give it them and the US bullied the UN into agreeing, Orthodox jews denounce Zionism and openly protest with Palestinian Arabs...as for the rest of that reply there is always an answer if your willing to find it..its just Zionists will have you believe there isnt one except what they see as the answer..

[and then]

Codeblind, on 13 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

If when the story is corroborated by Palestinians then fine I'll accept he was waving a gun around at a checkpoint....pretty stupid thing to do but still at least we wont have to rely on the likes of Mickey Rosenthal I think he's called the Israeli forces spokesman for the truth, as for both sides hate each other no that's not true at all, for centuries Jews, Arabs and Christians lived in peace before Zionism sort to steal the land and used the UK to give it them and the US bullied the UN into agreeing, Orthodox jews denounce Zionism and openly protest with Palestinian Arabs...as for the rest of that reply there is always an answer if your willing to find it..its just Zionists will have you believe there isnt one except what they see as the answer..

Glad to see that you have it all sorted.... maybe you could contact the parties and solve it then?     BTW - welcome to UM!

[WHO U KIDDIN]

<sup>Israel foreign minister risks wrath of the West with appeasement claim

_{Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, has risked further damaging relations with the country's Western allies by likening their vows of support to Anglo-French appeasement of Nazi Germany in the 1930s and the subsequent failure to stop the Holocaust.}</sup>

In the latest in a series of belligerent statements about European criticism of Israeli plans for Jewish settlements, Mr Lieberman told a conference in Herzliya that international guarantees of support for Israel resembled the approach of Britain and France towards Czechoslovakia before its dismemberment by Hitler in the run up to the Second World War...

Read more:
http://www.telegraph...ment-claim.html

With Lieberman around, there's no need for Arab propagandists.
Every time he opens his mouth he offends all of Israel's allies, and then the Zionists have the nerve to ask "Why are we so hated?"

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 14 December 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[and then]

To say that the level of anti semitism in Europe is not increasing is to deny the reality of the situation.  In Norway, for example, Jews are being warned not to display the Star of David or wear a kippah in public.  What he says is true IMO.  The countries of Europe would gladly see Israel gone if it would simplify their situations domestically.  And the day you need to be concerned with is the day that the Zionists stop CARING why they are hated.  When they finally, as a nation, have to admit that no matter what they do they will still be hated - they may very well start behaving just like their enemies.  Think about that for awhile.

[Codeblind]

and then, on 14 December 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

welcome to UM!

yep

[Yamato]

While the defenders of Israeli policy want to make this conflict all about ethnicity as if your ethnicity automatically determines your politics, it's the people of Israel themselves that are getting fed up with the Zionist regime.  

I heard the former head of Mossad stating that the Israeli government hasn't passed a single initiative for change in years because of the domestic animosity for virtually everything the government tries to do.   And it doesn't matter what side of the Israel-Palestine conflict they take.  There are people on both sides of the conflict in Israel that despise their rulers.   In the worst case of the settlers and supporters of the settlements, when the sense of entitlement to someone else's property is so encouraged by a state for so long, their sense of entitlement eventually causes a backlash towards their enablers.  So this contempt against the regime transcends politics or whether one agrees with me or with the Zionists.  The problem with entitlements is that the entitled class take everything for granted and won't be happy until they get more, more, more.   They deserve it, for all kinds of different reasons!

Israel is growing very isolated in the world yet still insulated by the US veto, and that's really the only legal thread they've been hanging onto for decades keeping their occupation regime going.   But I'll come out early and just admit it; the game is up.   The end of the Zionist regime will be a wimper not a war.   Just like South Africa, just like China, just like the USSR, just like the US and so many other places throughout history, the people will rise up against tyranny and the regime will quietly vanish from time.

[Codeblind]

and then, on 14 December 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

To say that the level of anti semitism in Europe is not increasing is to deny the reality of the situation.
In Norway, for example, Jews are being warned not to display the Star of David or wear a kippah in public.

The reality is that the crimes of Israel are effecting the law abiding peaceful Jewish, this is wrong as not all Jews support an Israeli state, its just like orthodox Jews resistant to Zionism predicted..the biggest threat to Jews today is Zionism. Its very similar to the way the world sees Islam due to radical and fundamentalism, not all Muslims are Jihadist, the vast majority are moderates who want nothing more than to raise a family and live in peace with the world

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What he says is true IMO.  The countries of Europe would gladly see Israel gone if it would simplify their situations domestically

I don't think its quite so cut and dry as that, sure the countries of Europe are sick of the conflict but Israel gone....just what do you mean by that ?

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And the day you need to be concerned with is the day that the Zionists stop CARING why they are hated.  When they finally, as a nation, have to admit that no matter what they do they will still be hated - they may very well start behaving just like their enemies.  Think about that for awhile.

We are already concerned, what people like you seem to forget is until the birth of Zionism in the early 1900's Jews, Muslims, Christians all lived happily and peacefully together in that region for centuries..so all this the world hates Jews just because they are Jews is BS...

http://www.jewsagain...onism/index.cfm

http://www.nkusa.org.../bham022603.cfm

http://rense.com/general38/nozion.htm

http://www.zionismbook.com/

some useful links on just how Orthodox Judaism sees Zionism,

Edited by Codeblind, 14 December 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

and then, on 14 December 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

To say that the level of anti semitism in Europe is not increasing is to deny the reality of the situation.  In Norway, for example, Jews are being warned not to display the Star of David or wear a kippah in public.  What he says is true IMO.  The countries of Europe would gladly see Israel gone if it would simplify their situations domestically.  And the day you need to be concerned with is the day that the Zionists stop CARING why they are hated.  When they finally, as a nation, have to admit that no matter what they do they will still be hated - they may very well start behaving just like their enemies.  Think about that for awhile.

If the Zionists continue to label any legitimate criticism of its governmental policies as anti-Semitic it can only expect the world community to react negatively against it. To incessantly play the holocaust card, and attempt to blackmail the world into acceptance of its deadly apartheid policies concerning the Palestinians is simply immoral and has become totally unacceptable to most of the world. The Zionists' have created an explosive situation that is becoming extremely dangerous, and innocent Jews everywhere may suffer because of their intransigence.

Moderation and reason need to prevail, extremism is not the answer.

[ExpandMyMind]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 14 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

If the Zionists continue to label any legitimate criticism of its governmental policies as anti-Semitic it can only expect the world community to react negatively against it. To incessantly play the holocaust card, and attempt to blackmail the world into acceptance of its deadly apartheid policies concerning the Palestinians is simply immoral and has become totally unacceptable to most of the world.

And people even have to wonder why Finkelstein wrote 'The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering'?