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Afterlife and the brain


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#1    Rlyeh

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:57 PM

As much as I'd love to believe the mind can survive death, the understanding of the brain won't let me.
It is quite obvious the state of the brain plays a big role in what we associate with the mind, consciousness, personality, memory, emotions.
If the mind can survive death, this implies the mind is not dependent on the brain yet affecting the brain can bring about anything from amnesia, mood swings, change of personality to total loss of consciousness.
How do believers in the after life resolve this conflict of polar opposites?

I can only come to the logical conclusion the dead are dead in mind and body.


#2    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 02 December 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

As much as I'd love to believe the mind can survive death, the understanding of the brain won't let me.
It is quite obvious the state of the brain plays a big role in what we associate with the mind, consciousness, personality, memory, emotions.
If the mind can survive death, this implies the mind is not dependent on the brain yet affecting the brain can bring about anything from amnesia, mood swings, change of personality to total loss of consciousness.
How do believers in the after life resolve this conflict of polar opposites?

I can only come to the logical conclusion the dead are dead in mind and body.
That's because believers ( most of them) operate from the premis that the brain is a receiver of conciousness. An antenna. We might use a television as an example. If you change, the channel, or mess with the wiring, or any number of manipulations the television will respond in any number of ways. The parts and chemistry is still important for the antenna to operate, but not the source of the signal.

Quite obviously if NDEs are what they apear to be, this is probably the case.

Edited by Seeker79, 03 December 2012 - 12:30 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#3    Kazoo

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:59 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

That's because believers ( most of them) operate from the premis that the brain is a receiver of conciousness. An antenna. We might use a television as an example. If you change, the channel, or mess with the wiring, or any number of manipulations the television will respond in any number of ways. The parts and chemistry is still important for the antenna to operate, but not the source of the signal.

Quite obviously if NDEs are what they apear to be, this is probably the case.

And how does this relate to other species on earth? Those with and without brains.

Honestly I find that to be an egotistic assumption. What about a Monkey? A Jelly-fish? A dog? Lets say we discover aliens. What is this source to them?

Assuming this source exist why is our brain the only receiver out of the entire universe.

I have no qualms with the possible existence of something after-life. I find it completely possible. I just don't think it is something that has any basis in anything we know about the universe. I would say the brain has absolutely nothing to do with it. Whatever is happening can not be explained with our current knowledge of the universe.

EDIT: Actually. I would say it probably takes place outside of the universe as we know it. So any logic we apply to it make not make any sort of the sense in the plain of existence this after-life functions on.

Edited by Kazoo, 03 December 2012 - 01:02 AM.

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#4    Ashotep

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

The brain does not survive death only the spirit does.  The brain will decay with the rest of the body.  The spirit must retain knowledge though or how would it know who to contact after death.

I have seen a ghost so I know something survives death.


#5    Blood_Sacrifice

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:54 AM

Pretty sure I am that (most?) people who believe in an afterlife do so because of they believe some aspect of a biological members - his soul or whatever you may call it - is immaterial and survives end biological end at his death.

Slightly off-topic, but has science been able to explain consciousness/sentience yet? How non-organic, possibly unconscious particles come to form sentience?

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#6    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:40 AM

View PostKazoo, on 03 December 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:



EDIT: Actually. I would say it probably takes place outside of the universe as we know it. So any logic we apply to it make not make any sort of the sense in the plain of existence this after-life functions on.
Other animals and life would merely focus it differently. We can apply plenty of logic, philosophy, and even deduction to things that may be outside of this universe, we cannot apply science and empiricism.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#7    chopmo

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:19 AM

Mass Brain Damage/Comatosis. Study this and we will probally find the answer to how the soul function.

Biggest problems with that though is families that have something to do with these conditions don't particully a) want people prodding and poking their loved ones in this state B) want to increase the chance of not living again.

Not that I blame them or anything I would probally do the same.

why is everyone so &^%$ing concerned with "the end"...
new beginnings is what you should be concerned about...

#8    ZaraKitty

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:25 AM

I think I'm just going to wait and find out. Is there really a point to discuss it? He said she said, nobody can say for sure what happens. Interesting theories are interesting though.

The internet is a series of tubes, and those tubes are full of cats.

#9    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:27 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

That's because believers ( most of them) operate from the premis that the brain is a receiver of conciousness. An antenna. We might use a television as an example. If you change, the channel, or mess with the wiring, or any number of manipulations the television will respond in any number of ways. The parts and chemistry is still important for the antenna to operate, but not the source of the signal.
If consciousness is the signal, how does this address the problem of unconsciousness?

A broken TV has no effect on the signal.

View PostHilander, on 03 December 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

The brain does not survive death only the spirit does. The brain will decay with the rest of the body. The spirit must retain knowledge though or how would it know who to contact after death.

I have seen a ghost so I know something survives death.
This isn't a resolution to the problem in the OP.

Edited by Rlyeh, 03 December 2012 - 04:32 AM.


#10    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:34 AM

View PostZaraKitty, on 03 December 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

I think I'm just going to wait and find out. Is there really a point to discuss it? He said she said, nobody can say for sure what happens. Interesting theories are interesting though.
To me this is a glaring problem, I'm interested how people resolve it (assuming they make some attempt)


#11    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:48 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

If consciousness is the signal, how does this address the problem of unconsciousness?

A broken TV has no effect on the signal.

It does for the tv. No reception. It becomes a useless pile of elements.

There is no such thing as unconsciousness. This is just a state to describe when the tv is off. This is the very reason why NDES would occur in the first place. Why they happen when people are under heavy anestisia or when electrical activity seems to be tiny or non existant in the brain, or why we continuously dream while asleep. Just different channels or alternate ones. So we call them altered states of conciousness.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#12    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:00 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

It does for the tv. No reception. It becomes a useless pile of elements.
The signal still exists. However in the state of unconsciousness, consciousness ceases.

Quote

There is no such thing as unconsciousness.
Medical science disagrees with that. In fact it has demonstrated the opposite.

Quote

This is just a state to describe when the tv is off. This is the very reason why NDES would occur in the first place. Why they happen when people are under heavy anestisia or when electrical activity seems to be tiny or non existant in the brain, or why we continuously dream while asleep. Just different channels or alternate ones. So we call them altered states of conciousness.
Your analogy still fails to explain lack of consciousness, the total lack of mental awareness. If a signal, mental awareness should always logically exist as long as it is transmitted.
I suppose you've answered my question, you resolve it by ignoring it, pretending unconsciousness doesn't exist.

Edited by Rlyeh, 03 December 2012 - 05:05 AM.


#13    Arbenol68

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:05 AM

View PostHilander, on 03 December 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

The brain does not survive death only the spirit does.

I know that brains exist - I've seen one, and I've been led to believe that I have one of my very own, too.

But I've never seen a spirit. I don't know anybody who has. How do we know that a spirit exists? What is a spirit? Can we define it, measure it, or even tell if it's alive or not?


#14    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:06 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 03 December 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

I know that brains exist - I've seen one, and I've been led to believe that I have one of my very own, too.

But I've never seen a spirit. I don't know anybody who has. How do we know that a spirit exists? What is a spirit? Can we define it, measure it, or even tell if it's alive or not?
Spirits is the stuff I drink.


#15    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

Medical science disagrees with that.
It's just a label to describe when the body is inactive. When you are asleep, you are said the be unconcious. In fact you are concious of your dreams. You may not remember them, that dosnt mean that conciousness is gone. If this were not true we would not have NDEs in the first place. why would we have millions of stories if unconsciousness simply is just cessation any kind of experience.

I have been in surgery before. I know the feeling of being there one second and wakeing up hours latter as if nothing had happened. I have also slept like that before. Science prooves that we can have all sorts of experiences while "unconcious" it's just the memory that is the problem.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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