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Every tree in which has fruit-isfor your food


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#46    IamsSon

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:42 PM

View PostCopen, on 13 December 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

The Bible says God does everything twice for our proof that it is true. (Hebrews 6:18) Therefore, you can find it twice in the Bible. No other book is crammed packed with so many twos. That includes especially the creation.

Is there anywhere in the Bible where an animals spoke? Well, in Numbers 22: 28 the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey and it spoke to Balaam.
Actually, if we look at Hebrews 6:18 in context:

Quote

The Certainty of God’s Promise

13 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14 saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”[d] 15 And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
  We see that the verse does not in any way say what you interpreted.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#47    Copen

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:45 AM

There are words in the Bible God uses that have a meaning quite different from the dictionary definition. The meaning is derived from their use. Example: Adam "knew" his wife and she conceived Cain....And Adam "knew" his wife again; and she bore a son..."

The lineage of Jesus goes all the way back to Adam and the last remark is that Adam was the son of God. (Luke 3: 38) That brings up, again, the sons of God (descendants of Adam) married the daughters of men, all whom they chose.

QUESTION: Since Jesus said there would be no such thing as a wife of a man in heaven, where in scripture do you find support that angels can procreate? Course, those sons of God didn't just procreate with daughters of men, they married them. That means they hung around for a life time, till death do ye part. Really, angels lived on earth and grew old together with the daughters of men and built cities?

Moses, who came after Abraham, said in Deuteronomy 32: 8 that God divided to the nations their inheritance, when He, (God), separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. Adam was set in the Garden in Israel. Adam is connected to Israel by blood, by being placed in Israel and by being "the figure," (foreshadow),"of Him," (Jesus), "that was to come." (Romans 5:14)

QUESTION: How can Adam be a foreshadow of Jesus Christ if he is the man that brought sin into the world? There are many pictures, (foreshadows), of Jesus can be seen in Adam.

Back to proof "men" is used where it has a meaning different from dictionary definition meaning as mankind --- Galatians 1: 1 "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and  God the Father, who raised him from the dead)." Paul was saying neither Gentiles nor Jews made me an apostle. It was by the direct experience with Jesus Christ.

The whole earth was not cursed. Adam did not fall and bring all creation down with him. God cursed the serpent above all other animals. That curse holds true even today. People will have fear of a bear in a personal encounter, or many other animals in a dangerous situation; but the serpent has an automatic curse on it above all the other animals when it is just mentioned. The ground, (not the whole earth) were the serpent was in the tree was cursed. That very spot is where another tree was placed and Jesus Christ hung from that tree. And what more fitting place for sins to be paid than the the spot that was cursed.

Once God blesses something He never removes it. He is all knowing and all powerful. He is not a God that reneges on a blessing and later curses someone. God blessed Ham. That is why God did not curse Ham for performing a perverted act on his father, Noah. So God cursed Ham's son, Canaan. That curse has never lifted.

The same is true when God blessed male and female and told them to multiply. He couldn't turn around and curse them. And He didn't. Gentiles have always multiplied more than descendants of Adam. Adam transgressed. Everybody transgresses. David transgressed. No where in the Bible is there a fall of Adam. No where is there proof that Adam brought sin into the world because he ate the forbidden fruit. It says their eyes were opened and they were like gods knowing good and evil. Gods is used of priests and prophets of God. Such as in the Psalms and when King Saul's witch called up Samuel and she saw he was in Paradise with other gods, (other prophets and priests who knew good and evil).

"By one man, (Lucifer), sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that did not sin similar to Adam's transgression"

QUESTION: Why did sin not ENTER when the woman ate the fruit, since she ate it first? Could she have eaten fruit everyday in disobedience and sin would not have entered until Adam ate the fruit? Isn't disobedience a sin, even if you don't know you are being disobedient to God's dictates.

QUESTION: If death reigned from Adam to Moses, did death cease to reign after Moses? Is there no more death after Moses? Is it saying death began because of Adam? Does that mean death continued because of Moses? It is talking about sin increasing because the LAW had not been given.

QUESTION: Since God said the self same day (that's 24 hours) they ate the fruit they would die, did God lie? Was He talking about a death of the soul (seat of the mind, emotion)? Because they didn't die physically until one day more than 900 years later.

It may be hard to realize the many contradictions to Adam being the cause this world fell into sin; but the only way to eliminate the contradictions is to not be satisfied until everything adds up and there are no contradictions and no scripture ignored. It takes more than one person to do that together to keep each other from clinging to preconceived false teachings that are full of contradictions.

It took earnest seekers in the upper room 10 days of constant praying and searching the scriptures together. There was one point that must have been hard to swallow. That being the virgin birth. It was hard to accept. But they didn't take her word alone. They searched the scriptures and remembered things Jesus said. There must have been other points that needed contradictions eliminated. Modern history of religious cults has proved it is not impossible to get as many as 120 men and women to all agree together on something from one leader. But they were not in agreement with scripture and the leader was teaching contradictions with the Bible. But on Pentecost when the 120 men and women all came together in one accord with God and the scriptures, the anointing with fire came down and started a revival.

If we have a revival, that's the way it will happen again. Don't be satisfied with a contradiction. Acknowledge them and get in one accord with God and the scriptures.
May God bless us all is my prayer.


#48    Jor-el

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:37 PM

View PostCopen, on 18 December 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

There are words in the Bible God uses that have a meaning quite different from the dictionary definition. The meaning is derived from their use. Example: Adam "knew" his wife and she conceived Cain....And Adam "knew" his wife again; and she bore a son..."

Oh, and who doesn't know that means sexual relations?

I mean it is quite cleary all the way through the bible, even in the New Testament.

Matthew 1:24-25

When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but knew her not UNTIL she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.

Quote

The lineage of Jesus goes all the way back to Adam and the last remark is that Adam was the son of God. (Luke 3: 38) That brings up, again, the sons of God (descendants of Adam) married the daughters of men, all whom they chose.

You are relying on false exegisis
The problem with that view is that the term "sons of God" also means angels and gods. So who exactly is meant in Genesis 6?

At no time, before the Flood or after, has God destroyed or threatened to destroy the human race for the sin of "mixed marriages." And that is exactly what you are proposing with your interpretation. It is impossible to reconcile this extreme punishment with the mere verbal strictures found elsewhere in the Bible for the same practice. If God is going to be consistent, He should have destroyed the human race many times over!

The contrast made in Genesis 6:2 is not between the descendants of Seth and the descendants of Cain, but between the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men." If by "sons of God" is meant "sons of Seth," then only the sons of Seth engaged in mixed marriages, and not the daughters. And only the daughters of Cain were involved, and not the sons. And another strange assumption is implied: that only the sons of Seth were godly, and only the daughters of Cain were evil.

The strangeness is compounded when one seeks for evidence that the sons of Seth were godly. We know from Genesis that when the time came for God to destroy the human race, He found only one godly family left among them--that of Noah. Where were all the other supposedly godly sons of Seth?

Even Seth's own son could hardly be called righteous. His name was Enos, meaning "mortal" or "frail." And he certainly lived up to it! Genesis 4:26 reads, "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord." That statement seems harmless enough, but what does it mean when it says that it was only now that men began to call upon the name of the Lord? Upon whom did Adam call? And Abel? And Seth himself?

Some scholars give us a more literal and exact translation to this verse: "Then men began to call themselves by the name of Jehovah." Other scholars translate the statement in this manner: "Then men began to call upon their gods (idols) by the name of Jehovah." If either of these be the correct translation then the evidence for the so-called godly line of Seth is non- existent. The truth of the matter is that Enos and his line, with few noted exceptions, were as ungodly as the other line. The divine record could not be clearer: "all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth" (Genesis 6:12).

The term sons of God is an ancient term, used throughout the Near Middle East. The entire region including Israel shared a common cosmological view of the universe, and one of the things that was well known is that the term was used to speak of the lesser gods, These gods shared the atributes of their father, had supernatural powers, but were in fact created by the Father God.... who does that bring to mind? angels...

Quote

QUESTION: Since Jesus said there would be no such thing as a wife of a man in heaven, where in scripture do you find support that angels can procreate? Course, those sons of God didn't just procreate with daughters of men, they married them. That means they hung around for a life time, till death do ye part. Really, angels lived on earth and grew old together with the daughters of men and built cities?

Your questions will be answered fully, but you also need to ask yourself, what assumptions are you making when you ask them...

Contrary to what you may believe, scripture supports my view rather than yours...

1st, angels can and do incarnate (become flesh and blood) There are a number of instances of this in the bible, but I'll give you two.

In Genesis 18, God appears along with TWO angels to Abraham. We know this because all three figures are eventually identified in the text as such. This was not a vision, it was a physical event.

7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

Notice that they ATE the food prepared and offered to them. Not only God, but the two angels with him as well. Those same angels are then sent on an errand by God, to Sodom.

This is evidenced by the words of the text.

Genesis 19

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

These are the very same angels that appeared to Abraham with God. The textual context verifies this. It is not an opinion. Now guess what happens to these angels?

They are attacked by the Sodomites and if they hadn't been inside Lots house, they would have been raped... That is why the word Sodomize, means male on male rape.

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

So were these men seeing visions or were they seeing angles who had physical bodies?

This is attested again by many, and I mean many other sources of literature, from the near Middle East and from Israel itself. Angels could and did become flesh. These weren't special cases, they are a natural attribute of angels, they can become flesh when they want to. How many stories have we heard, of angels saving people, physically, for that they need physical bodies. Do these bodies age? We don't know, but probably not, they are not human flesh.

That brings us to the last point. How can mixed marriages, between believers and idolatrers produce monsters?

The Nephilim are clearly hybrids, they are represented as such, they are neither human or angelic, they are a mixture of both. How can such beings be the produce of humans, whether they be believers or unbelievers. No, there is much more there than marriage between humans.

Now let us go elswhere... to the New Testament, let us see what Jude has to say on the subject.

Jude 1:6-7

6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Notice how the angels in the text are linked directly to sexual imorality and that the judgement of these angels was to be imprisoned in eternal chains. The references are clear that these are the angels referred to as the sons of God in Genesis 6. The references again are not only biblical but extra-biblical. Entire books were written on the subject by the ancients. The book of Enoch written long before the New Testament is a witness to the truth of these statements. There are many other witnesses especially in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Your view on the other hand is an invention by Jews in the late 1st century who could not accept christianity... by espousing it you actually denigrate the word of God.

Quote

Moses, who came after Abraham, said in Deuteronomy 32: 8 that God divided to the nations their inheritance, when He, (God), separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. Adam was set in the Garden in Israel. Adam is connected to Israel by blood, by being placed in Israel and by being "the figure," (foreshadow),"of Him," (Jesus), "that was to come." (Romans 5:14)

Incorrect. It is now known and accepted by virtually ALL bible scholars that the verse in question, (Deuteronomy 32: 8) had been altered in Masoretic text over the centuries. The original reading as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and adopted in nearly all New translations of the bible is as follows...

Deuteronomy 32:8

English Standard Version (ESV)

8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the
sons of God.

The reason for the alteration is clearly to allow for the modern reading that you defend. The earliest masoretic text is from the 9th century C.E. The Dead Sea Scrolls reading is clearly the original and superior of the two. The text was definitely altered in the late 1st century because of the discomfort this caused in some circles. Chrsitianity adopted it unknowingly in later times after it rejected much of the early Jewish literature it relied on from early on in the 1st century.

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QUESTION: How can Adam be a foreshadow of Jesus Christ if he is the man that brought sin into the world? There are many pictures, (foreshadows), of Jesus can be seen in Adam.

He is a foreshadow as you put it, but in contrasts not in parallels. That is the error of your view. Let me quote the bible here...


1 Cor. 15:22, 45

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became
a living being”, the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Romans 5:12-14

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

It is clear that Sin came into the world due to the actions of ONE man (Adam) and that because of this death came to all men, because all are sinners. Jesus is also called the 2nd Adam, because he came to do what the 1st failed to do. That is why the foreshadow (type) as you put it does not equate, they are contrasts, not parallels. There is more than one kind of type.


Quote

The same is true when God blessed male and female and told them to multiply. He couldn't turn around and curse them. And He didn't. Gentiles have always multiplied more than descendants of Adam. Adam transgressed. Everybody transgresses. David transgressed. No where in the Bible is there a fall of Adam. No where is there proof that Adam brought sin into the world because he ate the forbidden fruit. It says their eyes were opened and they were like gods knowing good and evil. Gods is used of priests and prophets of God. Such as in the Psalms and when King Saul's witch called up Samuel and she saw he was in Paradise with other gods, (other prophets and priests who knew good and evil).

I won't comment on the above, it is simply too strange...

Quote

"By one man, (Lucifer), sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that did not sin similar to Adam's transgression"

When was Lucifer ever a MAN?

The reference to the man is clearly Adam it actually says so in the scripture... I just quoted it. Or are you saying that Lucifer is the type of the one who was to come (Jesus)?

Romans 5:12-14

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

You know, one can't have it both ways. Either one adheres to what is actually written, or one writes fiction.

Quote

QUESTION: Why did sin not ENTER when the woman ate the fruit, since she ate it first? Could she have eaten fruit everyday in disobedience and sin would not have entered until Adam ate the fruit? Isn't disobedience a sin, even if you don't know you are being disobedient to God's dictates.

Sin didn't enter because she was not the responsible individual before God for keeping the commandment. Adam was. Thus the responsability was his, the consequences though were shared but individually tailored.

Quote

QUESTION: If death reigned from Adam to Moses, did death cease to reign after Moses? Is there no more death after Moses? Is it saying death began because of Adam? Does that mean death continued because of Moses? It is talking about sin increasing because the LAW had not been given.

Death without the Law reigned from Adam to Moses, death did not cease with Moses, but death due to the Law followed. In both circumstances, Death was not negated. Did death cease with Jesus? No. The events decreed are not negated, we must die, because of the consequences of sin, but we are also saved and born again to life everlasting. One does not contradict the other.

Quote

QUESTION: Since God said the self same day (that's 24 hours) they ate the fruit they would die, did God lie? Was He talking about a death of the soul (seat of the mind, emotion)? Because they didn't die physically until one day more than 900 years later.

Incorrect.

That is a misinterpretation of scripture due to the complexity of the Hebrew in question.





מוֹת תָּמוּת
tamut mot

you shall die dying


Biblical Hebrew

Hebrew has two infinitives, the infinitive absolute and the infinitive construct. The infinitive construct is used after prepositions and is inflected with pronominal endings to indicate its subject or object: bikhtōbh hassōphēr "when the scribe wrote", ahare lekhtō "after his going". When the infinitive construct is preceded by ל (lə-, li-, lā-) "to", it has a similar meaning as the English to-infinitive, and this is its most frequent use in Modern Hebrew. The infinitive absolute is used for verb focus, as in מות ימות mōth yāmūth (literally "die he will die"; figuratively, "he shall indeed die"). This usage is commonplace in the Bible, but in Modern Hebrew it is restricted to high-flown literary works.

Source: Wikipedia

And here again is another more detailed explanation...

But is the penalty annexed to the law translated according to the full import of the original text? All Hebraists are agreed that it is not. The words penned by Moses, without the Masoretic pointing are ki bium akalek memenu muth temuth—the English of which is, for after the day of thy eating from it, dying thou shalt die. We have rendered byom 'after the day.'

For the information of the mere English reader, we remark that byom is formed from the particle b, which is here a proposition as well as a prefix; and yom which signifies day, definite, or otherwise, according to the context. Bayt or b has many countersigns in our language, among which are in, against, to, after, &c. We have selected from these the last. B or Bayt is used in this sense in Numb. 28:26, where it is prefixed to the word sebothikam, which is rendered 'after your weeks;' that is, your weeks having expired, or from the expiration of your weeks, 'ye shall have a holy convocation;' so in the case before us, 'after the day of the eating,' or the day of the eating having passed; or, 'from the day of thy eating dying thou shalt die.'

As to the phrase 'dying thou shalt die,' no criticism is needed; for it is admitted as the correct rendering on every side.

As such the correct interpretation is not a literal 24 hour period where death would occur after disobedience. It is quite clearly an expression that death would come to them over time, but they would most certainly die. Dying, you shall die. We all are dying at this very moment, little by little, cell by cell.

Mankind was never created immortal, what kept Adam and Eve from dying was access to the tree of life, when that access was denied, they proceeded to age and die.

I would challenge anybody to find a single verse that states that mankind was created immortal. That is the reason why they were banned from the Garden of Eden, not because they sinned. The sin was the cause of their expulsion, but the reson the were expelled was so that they could not maintain access the tree of Life. It is there in black and white.

Quote

It may be hard to realize the many contradictions to Adam being the cause this world fell into sin; but the only way to eliminate the contradictions is to not be satisfied until everything adds up and there are no contradictions and no scripture ignored. It takes more than one person to do that together to keep each other from clinging to preconceived false teachings that are full of contradictions.

It took earnest seekers in the upper room 10 days of constant praying and searching the scriptures together. There was one point that must have been hard to swallow. That being the virgin birth. It was hard to accept. But they didn't take her word alone. They searched the scriptures and remembered things Jesus said. There must have been other points that needed contradictions eliminated. Modern history of religious cults has proved it is not impossible to get as many as 120 men and women to all agree together on something from one leader. But they were not in agreement with scripture and the leader was teaching contradictions with the Bible. But on Pentecost when the 120 men and women all came together in one accord with God and the scriptures, the anointing with fire came down and started a revival.

If we have a revival, that's the way it will happen again. Don't be satisfied with a contradiction. Acknowledge them and get in one accord with God and the scriptures.
May God bless us all is my prayer.

I am never satisfied with contradictions, I study them to death until they cease to be so, that is why your view does not make sense, instead of subtracting it adds confusion and misunderstanding.

Edited by Jor-el, 19 December 2012 - 12:14 AM.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#49    Idano

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:21 AM

View Postchopmo, on 03 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

But you also take texts from different sources and expect the answers to remain the same. 1+1=1, 2+2=4, 1+2=3 < see the sequence no matter how much you want to change the basics of the sum it will always be changed. 1+2 will never = 2 or 4.

Uhmmm don't mean to be difficult but in binary number it does... :su

What could possibly go wrong?

#50    Idano

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:29 AM

Sheesh all this over some fruit...Does this mean Harry and David are the anti-christ?

What could possibly go wrong?

#51    chopmo

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:54 AM

View PostIdano, on 19 December 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Uhmmm don't mean to be difficult but in binary number it does... :su

Have fun speaking binary then. :P

Or convert all ancient texts into binary to discover a truth???
*insert creep sci-fi music*

Edited by chopmo, 20 December 2012 - 06:54 AM.

why is everyone so &^%$ing concerned with "the end"...
new beginnings is what you should be concerned about...

#52    Idano

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:56 AM

View Postchopmo, on 20 December 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Have fun speaking binary then. :P

Or convert all ancient texts into binary to discover a truth???
*insert creep sci-fi music*

considering your on a computer, your already speaking binary through an interpreter.  Convert ancient texts??  I just pointed out that 1+1 can equal 1.

What could possibly go wrong?

#53    IamsSon

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

View PostJor-el, on 18 December 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:


That is a misinterpretation of scripture due to the complexity of the Hebrew in question.





מוֹת תָּמוּת
tamut mot

you shall die dying



I always learn a whole lot from your posts, my friend.  Thank you.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#54    Copen

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 01:51 AM

The sons of God (Jewish descendants of Adam) who married the daughters of men (Gentiles) were in no way angering God for doing so. It was not until the sons of God CEASED marrying the daughters of men and instead just had sex with them that evil multiplied on earth.

No where in the Bible is illicit sex defined as "knew." That term is only used for married couples.

I did not think you were unfamiliar with what the word "knew" meant. I was only using that as an example to show that there are words that have a different meaning than the dictionary definition which are understood only by the way they are used. I know that Adam was a son of God by the genealogy in Luke.

The devil told Eva when she ate the fruit her eyes would be opened and she would become gods knowing good and evil. And that is exactly what happened. "And the eyes of them both were opened." And God said, "the man is become as one of us..." What was "us"? gods!!!! (little g) What made them gods??????? Because they "know good and evil..." (Genesis 3: 22) So the serpent was right.

So the definition of gods (little "g") is knowing good and evil. And when Samuel was called up out of Paradise by King Saul's witch, she saw Samuel was with gods. That would be priests and prophets who knew and understood good and evil and served in righteousness. And priests and prophets are the gods in the Psalms.

The Bible is so extensive, there may be places in which the Bible says sons of God were angels. I don't know where that could be. Your article is so large, I hate that I can't reply to everything; but it is too hard to keep on a continuous point when you are covering so much. I saw nothing in the scripture you used that proved that sons of God were angels. Maybe I missed it. Like I said, it was a large post.
God bless us all is my prayer.

Edited by Copen, 25 December 2012 - 01:53 AM.


#55    Jor-el

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostCopen, on 25 December 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

The sons of God (Jewish descendants of Adam) who married the daughters of men (Gentiles) were in no way angering God for doing so. It was not until the sons of God CEASED marrying the daughters of men and instead just had sex with them that evil multiplied on earth.

That is NOT what the text says...
I think it is evident and quite clear that the text is to be read that it is due to marriage occuring (not because it stopped) that they were judged.

Genesis 6:1-2

6 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

The fact remains that the term "Sons of God" is used of beings that are NOT human. It is self evident in the text due to the distinction made between "sons of God" and "daughters of men" (human women)

Under no circumstances has it EVER been used of Jewish descendants of Adam, simply because they did not yet exist in the ante-diluvian world.

If that doesn't convince you, then Job does a good job of distinguishing exactly what they are...

Job 1:6-7

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”

Job 2:1

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

I challange you to say that these are human beings coming before God... Satan is NOT and never was a human being, why is he clustered with the term "Sons of God"?

And if you are still not convinced, I remind you again of Psalm 82...

Psalm 82

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the
midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”


5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.


6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;

7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”


8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!


I suggest you look up the term "Divine Council" and how it connects with the term "Sons of God".

Do you notice the bolded part? It is the key here. How can "men" be sentenced to "die like men". That is not a sentence that is logical if we are talking of human beings. We are already condemned to die. It is what all men are condemned to do, so why should this particular phrase be used here? It is only applicable to beings who could not die in the natural order of things (like angels), that is the sense of the verse.

If it meant "mankind" it would reference the time when man was punished for disobedience and condemned to die (Genesis 3) why does it specifically reference unjust and partial judgements... partiality to the wicked, ignoring the weak and good people of the world, a reference to the nations?

The answer is that it was the responsability of the Sons of God (as described in Deuteronomy 32:8) to adminiter the nations. It is they who were judged unfit and condemned.

Quote

Nowhere in the Bible is illicit sex defined as "knew." That term is only used for married couples.

Bollywocks... do a search before you say such things...

Judges 19:25

But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and made her go out to them. And they knew her and abused her all night until the morning. And as the dawn began to break, they let her go.

Genesis 19:4-8


4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” 6 Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, 7 and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.”


Genesis 19:4-8

English Standard Version (ESV)

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” 6 Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, 7 and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.”
It simply means "sex".

Quote

I did not think you were unfamiliar with what the word "knew" meant. I was only using that as an example to show that there are words that have a different meaning than the dictionary definition which are understood only by the way they are used. I know that Adam was a son of God by the genealogy in Luke.

I don't argue this fact, but you should not accept the term to mean that only humans are "sons of God". There is more than enough evidence in the bible to blow that idea away. Yet there are mny other contemporary sources that say the same. The Ugaritic texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls clarify this issue eve further.

Literary and conceptual parallels discovered in the literature of Ugarit, however, have provided a more coherent explanation for the number seventy in Deuteronomy 32:8 and have furnished support for textual scholars who argue against the "sons of Israel" reading. Ugaritic mythology plainly states that the head of its pantheon, El (who, like the God of the Bible, is also referred to as El Elyon, the "Most High") fathered seventy sons,10 thereby specifying the number of the "sons of El" (Ugaritic, bn il). An unmistakable linguistic parallel with the Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint reading was thus discovered, one that prompted many scholars to accept the Septuagintal reading on logical and philological grounds--God (El Elyon in Deut. 32:8) divided the earth according to the number of heavenly beings who existed from before the time of creation.11 The coherence of this explanation notwithstanding, some commentators resist the reading of the Septuagint, at least in part because they fear that an acceptance of the readings (both of which may be translated "sons of gods") somehow means that Yahweh is the author of polytheism. This apprehension has prompted some text-critical defenses of the Masoretic text in Deuteronomy 32:812 based on a misunderstanding of both the textual history of the Hebrew Bible and text-critical methodology, a prejudiced evaluation of non-Masoretic texts, and an unfounded concern that departure from, the Masoretic reading results in "Israelite polytheism." The goal of this article is to show that viewing "sons of God" as the correct reading in Deuteronomy 32:8 in no way requires one to view Israelite religion as polytheistic.

Source: http://faculty.gordo...r-Deut32-BS.htm

Adam is called a son of God, yes, but so were the angels. The term can be applied to humans, we find it done so, a number of times, but NOT in the places you are proposing.

Quote

The devil told Eva when she ate the fruit her eyes would be opened and she would become gods knowing good and evil. And that is exactly what happened. "And the eyes of them both were opened." And God said, "the man is become as one of us..." What was "us"? gods!!!! (little g) What made them gods??????? Because they "know good and evil..." (Genesis 3: 22) So the serpent was right.

I am not saying otherwise, but, let me ask you a question, who is the US in the text?

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.

So who is he referring to? Some would say, the Trinity, but that is not the case. It is in fact the Divine Council!!!

See: http://en.wikipedia....Divine_Council
and http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/
and http://www.herealitt...=Divine-Council


Quote

So the definition of gods (little "g") is knowing good and evil. And when Samuel was called up out of Paradise by King Saul's witch, she saw Samuel was with gods. That would be priests and prophets who knew and understood good and evil and served in righteousness. And priests and prophets are the gods in the Psalms.

Let me just post a link to an article in my blog that should clarify this issue See: http://www.unexplain...showentry=22396

Quote

The Bible is so extensive, there may be places in which the Bible says sons of God were angels. I don't know where that could be. Your article is so large, I hate that I can't reply to everything; but it is too hard to keep on a continuous point when you are covering so much. I saw nothing in the scripture you used that proved that sons of God were angels. Maybe I missed it. Like I said, it was a large post.
God bless us all is my prayer.

I'm sorry my post was so large, but I was merely answering your questions. Since an answer requires substantiation (otherwise it is merely one opinion out of many), it required me to be as complete as possible, given the subject matter. I can also give shorter answers, but then it would require you to accept that I am not writing merely to pass the time, I do know what I am talking about.

My suggestion would be to read the links I posted, you may not agree with them, but then you would know what my basis is for challanging your statements.

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#56    Copen

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:45 AM



The sons of God (Jewish descendants of Adam) who married the daughters of men (Gentiles) were in no way angering God for doing so. It was not until the sons of God CEASED marrying the daughters of men and instead just had sex with them that evil multiplied on earth.

Jor-el reply to Copen:
That is NOT what the text says...
I think it is evident and quite clear that the text is to be read that it is due to marriage occuring (not because it stopped) that they were judged.

Genesis 6:1-2

6 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

Copen reply to Jor-el:
You didn't read far enough.
Genesis 6: 3-4
"My Spirit shall not always judge with man, (Jews), for he also is flesh... the sons of God, (Jews), came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them..."
So children began to be born out of wedlock. In the Bible every time sex is outside marriage, the intimate, loving, face-to-face word "knew" is never used. It is described as "took her" or "came in unto her."

If an angel is a spirit and there is no such thing as marriage in heaven according to the Bible, these sons of God were not spirits but descendants of Adam who is called a son of God in Luke genealogy of Jesus. These Jews were are first marrying the daughters of men, (Gentiles); and God said because they were ALSO FLESH they became corrupt and began having sex and fathering children out of wedlock. Children born and raised out of wedlock have a lack of wholesome upbringing and the society becomes evil and corrupt. (Sounds like today!!!)

Your post is so long, I'll have to go back later and see what else to reply to.
God bless us all is my prayer.


#57    Copen

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:21 AM

Jor-el reply to Copen:
you should not accept the term to mean that only humans are "sons of God". There is more than enough evidence in the bible to blow that idea away. Yet there are mny other contemporary sources that say the same. The Ugaritic texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls clarify this issue eve further.

Copen reply to Jor-el:
I'm not being sarcastic, for I am never closed minded to never learn. I hope you show me evidence in the Bible to support that sons of God were also spirits.

Now, I will add something that perhaps you had not thought about. God gave us certain keys in the Bible so that truth can be discerned. One of the keys is this:
"the invisible things of Him, (God), from the (time of) the creation of the world are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead..."

God gives us something made (something not invisible) to understand the invisible spiritual things. The Godhead is confirmed to be triune by something that was made at the creation of the world --- male and female with a mind, a heart and a flesh body. The Holy Spirit, the Father and Jesus are united, inseparable and yet functions in different ways.

Now, go to the reference of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus is Living Water. Living water is not any part of Dead Sea. God is giving something physical to discern the spiritual. It is no coincidence that the scrolls were named Dead Sea. Do not give credence to anything from the Dead Sea Scrolls. That is the devils way of deceiving. There is nothing in any other text other than the Bible that is divinely inspired, therefore it has no power or proof of anything associated with the Bible.
God bless us all is my prayer.


#58    Jor-el

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostCopen, on 04 January 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:



The sons of God (Jewish descendants of Adam) who married the daughters of men (Gentiles) were in no way angering God for doing so. It was not until the sons of God CEASED marrying the daughters of men and instead just had sex with them that evil multiplied on earth.
Jor-el reply to Copen:
That is NOT what the text says...
I think it is evident and quite clear that the text is to be read that it is due to marriage occuring (not because it stopped) that they were judged.

Genesis 6:1-2

6 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

Copen reply to Jor-el:
You didn't read far enough.
Genesis 6: 3-4
"My Spirit shall not always judge with man, (Jews), for he also is flesh... the sons of God, (Jews), came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them..."
So children began to be born out of wedlock. In the Bible every time sex is outside marriage, the intimate, loving, face-to-face word "knew" is never used. It is described as "took her" or "came in unto her."

If an angel is a spirit and there is no such thing as marriage in heaven according to the Bible, these sons of God were not spirits but descendants of Adam who is called a son of God in Luke genealogy of Jesus. These Jews were are first marrying the daughters of men, (Gentiles); and God said because they were ALSO FLESH they became corrupt and began having sex and fathering children out of wedlock. Children born and raised out of wedlock have a lack of wholesome upbringing and the society becomes evil and corrupt. (Sounds like today!!!)

Your post is so long, I'll have to go back later and see what else to reply to.
God bless us all is my prayer.

No... and No.

Sorry but you haven't answered my question... since when is sexual intercourse without marriage cause for God judging mankind with a flood? Give me a time when this never happened? Never!!!

Is someone teaching you this stuff in a church???

Hide your head in the sand if you want, it doesn't change what is written in the bible, no matter how much evidence to the contrary you ignore.

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#59    Jor-el

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostCopen, on 04 January 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

Jor-el reply to Copen:
you should not accept the term to mean that only humans are "sons of God". There is more than enough evidence in the bible to blow that idea away. Yet there are mny other contemporary sources that say the same. The Ugaritic texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls clarify this issue eve further.

Copen reply to Jor-el:
I'm not being sarcastic, for I am never closed minded to never learn. I hope you show me evidence in the Bible to support that sons of God were also spirits.

Now, I will add something that perhaps you had not thought about. God gave us certain keys in the Bible so that truth can be discerned. One of the keys is this:
"the invisible things of Him, (God), from the (time of) the creation of the world are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead..."

God gives us something made (something not invisible) to understand the invisible spiritual things. The Godhead is confirmed to be triune by something that was made at the creation of the world --- male and female with a mind, a heart and a flesh body. The Holy Spirit, the Father and Jesus are united, inseparable and yet functions in different ways.

Now, go to the reference of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus is Living Water. Living water is not any part of Dead Sea. God is giving something physical to discern the spiritual. It is no coincidence that the scrolls were named Dead Sea. Do not give credence to anything from the Dead Sea Scrolls. That is the devils way of deceiving. There is nothing in any other text other than the Bible that is divinely inspired, therefore it has no power or proof of anything associated with the Bible.
God bless us all is my prayer.

Sorry Copen what you said is blatantly false.. do not even try to pull that one on me... and I would appreciate complete answers for each of the points in my posts... If you can't do it at one sitting, do it in steps.

Edited by Jor-el, 04 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.

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#60    Copen

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:03 AM

IamsSon posted:
since when is sexual intercourse without marriage cause for God judging mankind with a flood? Give me a time when this never happened? Never!!!

Copen reply to IamsSon:
God says it is a sin to have sex outside marriage, and tells that this was beginning to happen, and that children were being born of them. --- It marks the beginning of the moral slide downward of communities. I don't believe we could stand to read the gross evils that took place. It is mentioned after the flood that cannibalism was forbidden. So that must have been happening before the flood, too. One of the signs in Noah's day, to be repeated in the last days, is marrying and giving unto marriage. Shows a lot of legal switching of partners, marrying, divorcing and re-marrying.

God bless IamsSon





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