19 replies to this topic

[questionmark]

Spiegel said:

Israel's plan to expand settlement construction has drawn fierce international criticism, with Britain and France considering the withdrawal of their ambassadors and Germany expressing serious concern. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said the plan could deal an "almost fatal blow" to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Sunday sharply criticized the Israeli government's plan to expand settlement building in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, calling the plan an "an almost fatal blow" to a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

On Monday, Britain and France said they were considering measures to protest against the decision, which came in the wake of the United Nations' de facto recognition of Palestinian statehood last week.

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[and then]

questionmark, on 04 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

The rumor of British and French Ambassadors being recalled is just that - rumor.  Hollande has already said he's not thinking of sanction but talks to defuse the situation.  Britain summoned the Israeli Ambassador to give him an earful but no break in relations is mentioned there either.  This step by Israel is a measured diplomatic salvo in return for the Palestinian abrogation of Oslo.  It actually only amounts to preparatory work at this point - no where near construction phase.  It's a shot across the bow to make Abbas put up or shut up IMO.  Interesting that Ban thinks the world is coming to an end when Israel retaliates for Palestinian violation of a valid agreement yet says nothing of the violations that brought on the retaliation.  Just more of the same tiresome double standard.  It's like the region is sleepwalking toward war.

[questionmark]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

The rumor of British and French Ambassadors being recalled is just that - rumor.  Hollande has already said he's not thinking of sanction but talks to defuse the situation.  Britain summoned the Israeli Ambassador to give him an earful but no break in relations is mentioned there either.  This step by Israel is a measured diplomatic salvo in return for the Palestinian abrogation of Oslo.  It actually only amounts to preparatory work at this point - no where near construction phase.  It's a shot across the bow to make Abbas put up or shut up IMO.  Interesting that Ban thinks the world is coming to an end when Israel retaliates for Palestinian violation of a valid agreement yet says nothing of the violations that brought on the retaliation.  Just more of the same tiresome double standard.  It's like the region is sleepwalking toward war.

And all this action is a shot across Bibi's bow: The world is not ready to accept anything more than the '67 borders and if they can't agree on Jerusalem to have it under international control (with both the Palestinian and Israeli seat of government there). Nothing else will be recognized by the world community. If the settlers want to keep their settlements outside those borders they will be living in Palestine, not Israel. All really simple.

And how thin the international communities patience with Israel is growing has been amply demonstrated by Germany (who mostly lets Israel get away with murder) abstaining on the Palestinian statehood vote.

[The New Richard Nixon]

Think you find Germany is on the Palestinians side now questionmark

[and then]

questionmark, on 04 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

And all this action is a shot across Bibi's bow: The world is not ready to accept anything more than the '67 borders and if they can't agree on Jerusalem to have it under international control (with both the Palestinian and Israeli seat of government there). Nothing else will be recognized by the world community. If the settlers want to keep their settlements outside those borders they will be living in Palestine, not Israel. All really simple.

And how thin the international communities patience with Israel is growing has been amply demonstrated by Germany (who mostly lets Israel get away with murder) abstaining on the Palestinian statehood vote.

Oh, I'm aware that the august international body is stomping it's feet like a spoiled child over Israel's refusal to play by their rules but what, exactly, can they do to enforce anything?  No one is going to go to war over it.  The settlements at worst would be independent entities in the midst of "Palestine" that actually trump it's sovereignty in real world realities.  This can continue to devolve or the UN can get serious and force Abbas and Haniya(?) to the table with real concessions.  It might just amaze everyone the result if they did that.  The settlers would be furious but the Israeli government would JUMP at the chance for peace if it could be guaranteed by the US.  Frankly I think the trend here is against Israel because the international community has begun to actually believe their own propaganda about the parties to this conflict.  Sanctions may be forthcoming and eventually Israel will be driven into a corner.  It might sound like a cause for joy but I assure you it won't have a happy ending.

[questionmark]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Oh, I'm aware that the august international body is stomping it's feet like a spoiled child over Israel's refusal to play by their rules but what, exactly, can they do to enforce anything?  No one is going to go to war over it.  The settlements at worst would be independent entities in the midst of "Palestine" that actually trump it's sovereignty in real world realities.  This can continue to devolve or the UN can get serious and force Abbas and Haniya(?) to the table with real concessions.  It might just amaze everyone the result if they did that.  The settlers would be furious but the Israeli government would JUMP at the chance for peace if it could be guaranteed by the US.  Frankly I think the trend here is against Israel because the international community has begun to actually believe their own propaganda about the parties to this conflict.  Sanctions may be forthcoming and eventually Israel will be driven into a corner.  It might sound like a cause for joy but I assure you it won't have a happy ending.

Boycott Israel.

Just like they boycott Iran. With one difference, there won't be any Chinese and Russians to keep Israel going to the loo.

[The New Richard Nixon]

Or Australians now it seems they have joined in too, a supporter of Israel too. Israel is becoming arrogant and a rude nation

[and then]

questionmark, on 04 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Boycott Israel.

Just like they boycott Iran. With one difference, there won't be any Chinese and Russians to keep Israel going to the loo.

My guess is that will eventually happen.  And just like with Iran it will hurt the average citizen but change nothing about their policies.  You know, Q, it would be a lot easier for an agreement to be struck if Israel was being offered something other than promises not to kill their people if they'd only give up more land.  Especially when it's been proven that their enemies cannot be trusted.  The harder the world pushes the harsher Israel's actions will be.  Unless the Kadima crowd is elected.  Then there might be an orgasm of "land for peace" swaps that will be met yet again with more violence by the Palestinians.  All of Palestine must be liberated, you know?

[questionmark]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

My guess is that will eventually happen.  And just like with Iran it will hurt the average citizen but change nothing about their policies.  You know, Q, it would be a lot easier for an agreement to be struck if Israel was being offered something other than promises not to kill their people if they'd only give up more land.  Especially when it's been proven that their enemies cannot be trusted.  The harder the world pushes the harsher Israel's actions will be.  Unless the Kadima crowd is elected.  Then there might be an orgasm of "land for peace" swaps that will be met yet again with more violence by the Palestinians.  All of Palestine must be liberated, you know?

The only thing the world has to offer Israel is the recommendation to grow up, after 60 years they should have gotten the hang on how to be a normal state by now.

And no, Israel wont stop it expansion policies by itself until the last Palestinian is in Jordan.

[Corp]

A votes goes against them and Israel throws a hissy fit and further damages possible peace talks. Classy.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

questionmark, on 04 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

The only thing the world has to offer Israel is the recommendation to grow up, after 60 years they should have gotten the hang on how to be a normal state by now.

And no, Israel wont stop it expansion policies by itself until the last Palestinian is in Jordan.

And no, Israel wont stop it expansion policies by itself until the last Palestinian is in Jordan.
That does seem to be their endgame... Then wonders why people don't sympathize with them.

Currently what little land that is left to the West Bank's Palestinian communities amounts to nothing more then walled in 'reservations' as demonstrated by these maps:
 Occupied-Palestine-Map-2-Stu.jpeg   191.68K   8 downloads

[and then]

questionmark, on 04 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

The only thing the world has to offer Israel is the recommendation to grow up, after 60 years they should have gotten the hang on how to be a normal state by now.

And no, Israel wont stop it expansion policies by itself until the last Palestinian is in Jordan.

If that had happened in 1947 as it should have then there would be no problem.  Many times in the past, people have been dispossessed of their land and had no recourse but to move on.  The Arabs have 1000 times as much land as the Israelis yet we're supposed to believe that if Israel gives up the WB then erryting will be ayree mon.
The problem isn't the amount of land Israel sits on.  The problem is the very existence of the State itself.  I wish people would just have the integrity to admit this.

[Erikl]

questionmark, on 04 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Boycott Israel.

Just like they boycott Iran. With one difference, there won't be any Chinese and Russians to keep Israel going to the loo.

Wrong. Boycotting Israel will only make Islamist and anti-peace forces having more hope they can get rid of Israel. The problem is they don't accept Israel's right to exist, regardless of what Israel does or will do. Any boycott will also make Israeli extremists more popular among Israelis.

[and then]

Erikl, on 04 December 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Wrong. Boycotting Israel will only make Islamist and anti-peace forces having more hope they can get rid of Israel. The problem is they don't accept Israel's right to exist, regardless of what Israel does or will do. Any boycott will also make Israeli extremists more popular among Israelis.

It's amazing to me that they seem to think that Israel is someday going to be "shamed" into just committing national suicide because other nations virulently hate it.  I'd call it childish but it goes way beyond that.  It really is insane.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

It's amazing to me that they seem to think that Israel is someday going to be "shamed" into just committing national suicide because other nations virulently hate it.  I'd call it childish but it goes way beyond that.  It really is insane.

Israel is already committing hari kari by shunning the entire international community's calls for a fair and just resolution to the Palestinian conflict. If presently more then 90% of world opinion is against Israeli intransigence on the matter then it will be just a matter of time before world wide boycotts force the issue. Apartheid has no lovers.

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 05 December 2012 - 01:19 AM.