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Women allowed to speak .... sort of ....


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#136    Mr Walker

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:44 PM

View PostBeany, on 19 December 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

We all have a choice to work or not, it's whether we're prepared for the consequences of either choice, and I know families who have decided having mom home is more important than any economic benefit derived from her working. The point is, there are choices. While you may define me as a wage slave, I don't, and it's my perspective that matters most to me; how I participate in shaping my own life & future is at least as important as the societal forces around me.
Fair enough. I can respect that choice.

In principle I agree with you about people having choices, but in practice many women are basically forced to work, to help provide a family, either with the basic necessities of life because living costs are so high, or with the lifestyle choices and material possesions, society educates/indoctrinates them to believe they must have.

The high basic cost of living is, in part, based around the general inclusion of women in  the work force and the extra domestic revenues and hence taxation generated by these incomes. So families without two incomes are increasingly disadvantaged. In scandinavian countries, almost one entire wage from a working family goes towards govt taxes. That would of course be impossible if there was only one income in a family.

Whereas the australian govt used to provide tax relief for people with a dependent spouse, the movement by unions and governments to get as many women as possible into the work force slowly changed the tax regime so that it now disadvantages and penalises familires where a woman(or a man) stays at home to care for children. Rather from the increased income tax take of more employed,  it provides very high child care rebates for poorer families to put their children into professional child care.This further diminishes the role of family and parents.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

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#137    Mr Walker

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

View PostChloeB, on 19 December 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

And do you honestly think that those statistics went up because women were gaining equality in that time period got them abused more OR that gains in that area for women created an environment where abuse was much more reported?  People kept that stuff quiet back in the old days.  I highly doubt the abuse escalated, but you see the rise in numbers because women were making progress in standing up for the rights in many areas, this being one of them.

While this is, in part, true the experts and statistics agree that it is only a part of the equation. Violence, abuse especially sexual, etc. is increasing in our society, especially among the young, and particulary involving women. This is in part a result of, and to be expected from, the changing status of women in society. It has made them less respected, and also put them in more vulnerable positions, often making them targets.

That is not the fault of women and often the fault of individual men. More often it is a natural consequence of the changes. But it is real and must be recognised and addressed. I work among young men and women and I can see the change in how boys relate to girls. Yes there is more equality but that is not always good. The boys treat the girls like boys physically and emotionally, but physically and psychologically/emotionally, they are not the same. It is almost always the girls who get hurt, in one way or another.
I dont believe, I know, that  sexual abuse violence etc is increasing, particularly social or street violence. Women are increasingly, and inadvertantly, placing them selves at risk because they now have the freedoms to do so (this is also true for young men to a lesser degree and violence is greater among them as well)
There may be some reduction in domestic violence but that is much harder to assess The statistics show it is increasing, but as you say this may partly be a result of increased awareness, lower tolerance, and hence greater reporting.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#138    Arbenol

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:09 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 December 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

Women are increasingly abused and increasingly exposed to domestic and social violence sin e the 19 70s, and the statistics bear this out.

Women have always been abused by men. Only, in the past it wasn't illegal to rape or assault your wife. It happened - it just wasn't reported. The increase that is indicated in the stats can be attributed to a society that no longer finds this acceptable, where women are more able to report it. And that's a direct result of the rights movements. It's exposed it for the crime that it is - and is no longer the husband's prerogative.


#139    ouija ouija

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 19 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

This is in part a result of, and to be expected from, the changing status of women in society. It has made them less respected, and also put them in more vulnerable positions, often making them targets.

WHY should violence towards women be 'a result of' and (worse!), 'to be expected from', 'the changing status(i.e. a measure of equality), of women in society'? WHY should that make them less respected? WHY should they then be perceived as 'vulnerable'? I actually find this very shocking. Whichever way you present it, it just screams at me 'The menfolk are angry at those upstart women who have dared to put the baby down for a moment and step out of the kitchen ........ and by golly they're going to make them pay for it!'

You are a similar age to me and I have found your many and long posts fascinating ....... and deeply depressing, but not in the same way that you do.

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#140    Beany

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:37 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 19 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

While this is, in part, true the experts and statistics agree that it is only a part of the equation. Violence, abuse especially sexual, etc. is increasing in our society, especially among the young, and particulary involving women. This is in part a result of, and to be expected from, the changing status of women in society. It has made them less respected, and also put them in more vulnerable positions, often making them targets.

That is not the fault of women and often the fault of individual men. More often it is a natural consequence of the changes. But it is real and must be recognised and addressed. I work among young men and women and I can see the change in how boys relate to girls. Yes there is more equality but that is not always good. The boys treat the girls like boys physically and emotionally, but physically and psychologically/emotionally, they are not the same. It is almost always the girls who get hurt, in one way or another.
I dont believe, I know, that  sexual abuse violence etc is increasing, particularly social or street violence. Women are increasingly, and inadvertantly, placing them selves at risk because they now have the freedoms to do so (this is also true for young men to a lesser degree and violence is greater among them as well)
There may be some reduction in domestic violence but that is much harder to assess The statistics show it is increasing, but as you say this may partly be a result of increased awareness, lower tolerance, and hence greater reporting.

I'd like to see some statistics regarding the correlation between acts of violence committed against women and their changing role in society, Or a study. Or a paper. Or something. Society is constantly changing, and not all of it, I would guess very little of it, is accompanied by an increase in violence. And women are actually in a better position in regard to the violence because of fairly new laws that don't require the cooperation of an abused spouse before the police will arrest the abuser, and because more people understand that a rape victim is just that, a victim, no someone who has somehow inadvertently responsible for the rape, because we now understand rape is a crime of violence, not a sexual crime.

and it seems to me that in working class families many women did work outside the home, it was only in the middle & upper classes where women had the opportunity to stay home. Where I grew up, women worked in the canning factories, or fruit & vegetable packing plants, or out in the fields, taking in ironing, cleaning houses, renting out rooms, what ever they could to bring in some sheckels. I come from a blue collar family where everyone, men & women alike, worked their rears off in order to provide economic security for their families. As families moved up the socio-economic ladder the woman sometimes quit work, but only if her income wasn't needed. And I'm talking about the 50's & 60's here, when society generally was less affluent. Clearly you & I didn't grow up in the same environment.


#141    Mr Walker

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:04 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 19 December 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

WHY should violence towards women be 'a result of' and (worse!), 'to be expected from', 'the changing status(i.e. a measure of equality), of women in society'? WHY should that make them less respected? WHY should they then be perceived as 'vulnerable'? I actually find this very shocking. Whichever way you present it, it just screams at me 'The menfolk are angry at those upstart women who have dared to put the baby down for a moment and step out of the kitchen ........ and by golly they're going to make them pay for it!'

You are a similar age to me and I have found your many and long posts fascinating ....... and deeply depressing, but not in the same way that you do.
Look at the lifestyles of modern women, especially the young to see why this is so. Of course it is inexcusable. all violence is inexcusable.  I've only hit a female once in my life, when i had to slap a teenage girl who was violent and abusive, and I've only ever hit a bloke once, aged 15 in self defence. More to the point I verbalise and act towards all people with respect nad love. Its not just physical violence and abuse which harms people.

.But the increase danger to women happens because of physical changes in womens lives. Its a trade off for greater freedoms.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#142    Mr Walker

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:09 PM

Just out of interest, an unverified  (by me) report in my state newspaper this morning stated that; in new zealand, australia and america last year there were more domestic violence reports of women assaulting men, than men assaulting women.  The implication was that this was the first time this reversal of  reporting had occurred.

The injuries were not as severe in the cases of women striking men,  but open reporting of abuse apparently is working in both directions. Perhaps women are achieving true equality with men, at least in domestic violence. :innocent:

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#143    Mr Walker

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostBeany, on 20 December 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

I'd like to see some statistics regarding the correlation between acts of violence committed against women and their changing role in society, Or a study. Or a paper. Or something. Society is constantly changing, and not all of it, I would guess very little of it, is accompanied by an increase in violence. And women are actually in a better position in regard to the violence because of fairly new laws that don't require the cooperation of an abused spouse before the police will arrest the abuser, and because more people understand that a rape victim is just that, a victim, no someone who has somehow inadvertently responsible for the rape, because we now understand rape is a crime of violence, not a sexual crime.

and it seems to me that in working class families many women did work outside the home, it was only in the middle & upper classes where women had the opportunity to stay home. Where I grew up, women worked in the canning factories, or fruit & vegetable packing plants, or out in the fields, taking in ironing, cleaning houses, renting out rooms, what ever they could to bring in some sheckels. I come from a blue collar family where everyone, men & women alike, worked their rears off in order to provide economic security for their families. As families moved up the socio-economic ladder the woman sometimes quit work, but only if her income wasn't needed. And I'm talking about the 50's & 60's here, when society generally was less affluent. Clearly you & I didn't grow up in the same environment.
No I grew up in australia Few  married women worked. In part it was illegal in govt jobs, but also after the war there were not enough jobs for men, let alone women. But mainly it was social expectation  as it is now for women to work. Also we had a slightly better social welfare system here including payments, called child endowments, to married women with children to help meet family costs.

The labor force participation rate of men has been decreasing since the 1950s, having registered 86.4 percent in 1950, 79.7 percent in 1970, 76.4 percent in 1990, and 73.3 percent in 2005. This decline has resulted from various factors. For example, the Social Security Act was amended in 1960 to make individuals under 50 years of age eligible for disability payments.
The decline in the men’s labor force participation rate is expected to continue; it is projected to be 70 percent in 2020 and 66 percent in 2050.
Women’s labor force participation, which was at a rate of 33.9 percent in 1950, increased significantly during the 1970s and 1980s, climbing to 57.5 percent in 1990. In 1999, the women’s participation rate reached a peak of 60 percent.
http://www.bls.gov/o...n/wk2/art03.htm

womens and mens participation in work is now approaching equivalency. When I was born about a third of women( mostly single) worked; today it is twice that rate while male participation has dropped.

Edited by Mr Walker, 20 December 2012 - 11:20 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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