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What are your thoughts about salvation?


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#16    JGirl

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:51 AM

View PostEldorado, on 09 December 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Dying with a clear conscience.
i try to go to sleep each night with one. just in case...

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#17    JGirl

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:02 AM

i don't really know what paul was on about in the bible. none of it has anything to do with anything going on in my life anyway.
i was a church going baptist for many years.
i used to believe that salvation came in the form of being 'saved' at church. confessing jesus as one's savior, acknowledging that he died for one's sins and rose again. full immersion baptism etc.
i did it all. i don't regret doing it, it was a really meaningful and important part of my journey spiritually, but i have moved on from there. i no longer feel that fundamentalism is healthy or productive in my life. i no longer will allow a group of people to decide for me or dictate how i will live, how i will love or worship my god.
the promise of salvation is a dangling carrot. do this if you want that. i no longer believe that is the way it is. i now understand that we are all going to the same place when we leave here, wherever that may be

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#18    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:06 AM

View PostRyu, on 11 December 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

Quite frankly I never felt I needed to be saved. I mean, from what, exactly? Being alive? Being a human? Having emotions? Making mistakes or not "believing" on command?

We all suffer from time to time be it from our own hands (deliberately or unknowingly) or at the hands of others but we also feel happiness as well (for the same reasons as the afore mentioned).

I do not need to seek redemption or forgiveness for anything.
Humanity in general seems to love this idea of being constantly judged and being punished for the tiniest of deviations so it is not any surprise that this theme repeats itself in its various fantasies and mythologies.

This would be fine, except that most of modern humanity seems to be so depressed that it is on medication, including  many pre-adolescents, and suicide is the highest cause of death in people under 40 or so.

Those who aren't depessed are increasingly frustrated, angry, and violent; and also turning to legal and illegal drugs to cope withtheir lives.

That is NOT a functioning society nor a functioning populace, and it is NOT, IMO, how humans are meant to live or should have to live.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#19    libstaK

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:58 AM

I think there is a huge difference between "salvation" and self-preservation and I think a great many have fallen victim to their fear of damnation and chosen the path of self preservation.  When Jesus showed the full measure of the journey toward salvation he did it by submission and humility before his accusers, he meekly walked to his crucifixion and he uttered the most profound secret of salvation "father FORGIVE THEM, they know not what they do".

To me I cannot imagine feeling "saved" if I look (whereever one looks to see those suffering in so called hell) and see others crying in pain, it will be particularly impossible to be in a state of "salvation" if some of those cries could have been prevented by compassion and forgiveness on my part - and if my judgements were a weight on those shoulders? truly we need to consider this - can the paradigm of "salvation" be realised with these matters attached to us?  Basically there is a line in the sand which I feel has been crossed and blurred in comprehending what a free and joyous state of being truly is - how can it exist in the poor company of hatreds, vengeances and loathings and hugging our sense of being victims of injustices perpetrated by "guilty" others?

Edited by libstaK, 11 December 2012 - 09:00 AM.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#20    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:56 AM

View PostKarlis, on 09 December 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

According to the Bible, God’s salvation is meant for people of all nations. However, there are different ideas as to what salvation is, and different ideas as to how and when salvation is obtained.

What is salvation, and what do you think Paul meant in his letter to the Philippians where he wrote:

Php 2:12  ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

Salvation is knowing that our essense or spirit is god, eternal, undying. That says a lot, no doubt. Everything before us is also the expression of God, and made of God. Who said, God is not insane at times? In my life, God is brutal, loving, compassionate, giving, taking -- all of the above. The devil has nothing to do with the ugly side of God. The god in us is also forgiving, understanding, and sometimes, more loving than the abstract God in the Void. Yes, I am "aware" of my "fear and trembling" before the eye of the storm, which is also called God.

About St. Paul. He went through the loss of bodily posture and blindness...and his "thorn in the flesh," which God would not remove. So yes, I believe it's a warning, for God is not always "good," but it's for a reason beyond our scope, I'm sure.

Edited by braveone2u, 11 December 2012 - 10:59 AM.

(Christian) Gnosticism also has the Holy Spirit, Christ(os), Jesus, LOVE...and God.

#21    Copen

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:42 AM

The scripture you quoted says to "WORK out your own salvation." But eternal salvation is not by man's works. It is 100% by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, you have a contradiction if you believe they are talking about the same salvation.

Eternal salvation is the gift of grace given from God by the effectual WORKING of HIS power. (Ephesians 3:7) Did you notice His working is effectual? It is not weak. It never fails. So as God works in us His grace; it is up to us to work out that salvation. In other words, it is up to us to read scripture, pray, learn and obey. The obey part is truly a work to show Jesus in us.

So there are two different kinds of salvations in the Bible. The first God does, the second man does with the salvation he/she has already received.

Many times the word "save" is used telling Christians and in the OT, the Jews, to save. It just means deliver and it is talking about in the earthly realm. For instance early in Acts on Pentecost Peter told the 3000 to save themselves from that untoward generation. Their salvation was an earthly salvation from false teachers and priests in Herod's Temple.

The laver in Solomon's Temple held 3000 baths. The laver is a foreshadow of washing by the Word of God. It was no coincidence that 3000 got baptized.
God bless us all is my prayer.

Edited by Copen, 13 December 2012 - 01:43 AM.


#22    Karlis

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:10 AM

View PostCopen, on 13 December 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

The scripture you quoted says to "WORK out your own salvation." But eternal salvation is not by man's works. It is 100% by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, you have a contradiction if you believe they are talking about the same salvation.
Hi Copen -- I don't think there is a contradiction in the phrase, "work out your own salvation". I'm not sure, but perhaps you may be "reading work/s into this Scripture". What I mean is, if one is to "work out" the meaning of this Scripture, what kind of *work* is involved? And that, I think, agrees with what you write in the next paragraph; it is up to us to work out that salvation.

View PostCopen, on 13 December 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Eternal salvation is the gift of grace given from God by the effectual WORKING of HIS power. (Ephesians 3:7) Did you notice His working is effectual? It is not weak. It never fails. So as God works in us His grace; it is up to us to work out that salvation. In other words, it is up to us to read scripture, pray, learn and obey. The obey part is truly a work to show Jesus in us.

So there are two different kinds of salvations in the Bible. The first God does, the second man does with the salvation he/she has already received.

Many times the word "save" is used telling Christians and in the OT, the Jews, to save. It just means deliver and it is talking about in the earthly realm. For instance early in Acts on Pentecost Peter told the 3000 to save themselves from that untoward generation. Their salvation was an earthly salvation from false teachers and priests in Herod's Temple.

The laver in Solomon's Temple held 3000 baths. The laver is a foreshadow of washing by the Word of God. It was no coincidence that 3000 got baptized.
God bless us all is my prayer.
I agree with you that there are at least two forms of salvation. In this thread I'm looking at Scriptures about salvation to immortality. What does that salvation mean to Mankind?


#23    KrowMax

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:29 AM

Salvation is not Yesterday or Tomorrow ..We can read in the book of corinthians Paul Said: Today is the Time of Salvation.How to know that we obtained this so called salvation thing.And we will know that we obtained salvation through our faith..

                             Evil Person Listen To Evil Ideas And Liars Listen To Lies

#24    Copen

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:49 AM

View PostKarlis, on 13 December 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

Hi Copen -- I don't think there is a contradiction in the phrase, "work out your own salvation". I'm not sure, but perhaps you may be "reading work/s into this Scripture". What I mean is, if one is to "work out" the meaning of this Scripture, what kind of *work* is involved? And that, I think, agrees with what you write in the next paragraph; it is up to us to work out that salvation.

I agree with you that there are at least two forms of salvation. In this thread I'm looking at Scriptures about salvation to immortality. What does that salvation mean to Mankind?

The natural man receiveth not the spiritual things of God; neither can he KNOW them. They are spiritually discerned. ( I Cor. 2: 14) If a natural unsaved man cannot not receive or desire to know in order to choose to receive ---- then the man that wants God and wants to know anything about spiritual things has proof that God has already changed that person into a spiritual being and is no longer a natural man.  It is not of works least any man boast that he was smart enough or lucky enough to believe. Believing is the evidence he already has spiritual life for the natural man cannot believe.
God bless


#25    Karlis

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostCopen, on 13 December 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

The natural man receiveth not the spiritual things of God; neither can he KNOW them. They are spiritually discerned. ( I Cor. 2: 14) If a natural unsaved man cannot not receive or desire to know in order to choose to receive ---- then the man that wants God and wants to know anything about spiritual things has proof that God has already changed that person into a spiritual being and is no longer a natural man.  It is not of works least any man boast that he was smart enough or lucky enough to believe. Believing is the evidence he already has spiritual life for the natural man cannot believe.
God bless
I'm not sure, but are you saying that Mankind is incapable of understanding Scriptures about Mankind's future salvation -- aka being granted immortality?


#26    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

[According to the Bible, God’s salvation is meant for people of all nations.]

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’"


Awakening = being "born again"

Edited by braveone2u, 13 December 2012 - 11:53 AM.

(Christian) Gnosticism also has the Holy Spirit, Christ(os), Jesus, LOVE...and God.

#27    Karlis

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 13 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

[According to the Bible, God’s salvation is meant for people of all nations.]

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’"


Awakening = being "born again"
Can you give some specific details about the meaning of awakening = born again? From my viewpoint, if or when one accepts Jesus as Saviour, repents and is baptised ... does not mean that one is born again. Or did I miss something else that you mean about "awakening"?


#28    Bluefinger

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 13 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

[According to the Bible, God’s salvation is meant for people of all nations.]

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’"


Awakening = being "born again"

It also had to do with receiving a new identity.  In Revelation, several passages speak about God's people being given a new name.

During the first century, this had huge implications.  Jews that followed Jesus had to be born again, or receive a new identity, in order to enter into the age to come (the Messianic Age.)  When Jews followed Jesus, they were considered apostates by other Jews and their families, and not considered Jews by them.  

When the Romans went to war with Judea, Jews everywhere in the Roman Empire were persecuted simply because they were a Jew.  Shortly before that, Paul tirelessly campaigned with the Christians to warn them not to return to Judaism.  Paul knew that Jesus took the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 28:15-68) on Himself and those that rejected Him took the curse on themselves.

When the Romans went to war, the Jews were campaigning to other Jews to fight the Romans in effort to protect their heritage.  Those that joined the revolution died either in combat, of starvation, or from sedition among their own.  Josephus called it the worst tribulation that the Jews ever went through.  Had the Christians not been born again, they would have been destroyed alongside their Jewish brethren.

So, being born again created a new identity by which their was a noticeable difference between the Jews and Christians.  Of course, that is bot the exclusive definition of being born again, but rather an evident benefit of it.

Edited by Bluefinger, 13 December 2012 - 02:47 PM.

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#29    Bluefinger

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:56 PM

View PostKarlis, on 13 December 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Can you give some specific details about the meaning of awakening = born again? From my viewpoint, if or when one accepts Jesus as Saviour, repents and is baptised ... does not mean that one is born again. Or did I miss something else that you mean about "awakening"?

I think in a spiritual sense, it was when God made His dwelling among men by His Spirit.  

Consider Adam.  When Adam was created, there was no temple.  God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul.  During those days, God and Adam had an intimate relationship.

When Adam ate the forbidden fruit, God could not find Adam.  There was a disconnect.  In a way, Adam died.  

After that, God would enter a temple by His Spirit.  To commune with God, men would have to be called to by God and would have to purify themselves before entering the sanctuary.

Before Solomon's temple was destroyed, God's Spirit departed and went up to Heaven.  It didn't return until Jesus was baptized.  Jesus became a temple for God's Spirit.  Thus, the call for us to be baptized and born again means to purify ourselves in the death and resurrection of Christ and become a temple (residence) for God's Spirit.

In that way, we become Spiritually alive.  We are born again.

I hope that helped.

Edited by Bluefinger, 13 December 2012 - 02:57 PM.

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#30    Karlis

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:53 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 13 December 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

~~~ ...


... the call for us to be baptized and born again means to purify ourselves in the death and resurrection of Christ and become a temple (residence) for God's Spirit.

In that way, we become Spiritually alive.  We are born again.

I hope that helped.
As I see it, Scriptures say that the above process means being "conceived again" or "begotten again" -- not "born again".

1Pe 1:23 (ASV translation) having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed [through human father's sperm], but of incorruptible (seed)[aka through Holy Spirit/Seed of God/Jesus], through the word of God, which liveth and abideth#.
   # "conceived through the word of God", meaning conceived by the Spirit (non-perishable "seed"-"semen") that is of the Spirit of Jesus.

Sorry to quote a slab of Scriptures in support, but here it is necessary for clarity's sake:
2Co 3:17  Now the Lord [Jesus] is that Spirit [the imperishable seed/"semen" by which one can be "conceived again" so as to be "born again" as an immortal spirit being.]


1Co 15:12  ... how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:44  ... There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:50  ... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; ... .
1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Rom 8:11  ... if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [At the resurrection to life].


I do realise that the view I'm presenting here is not the mainstream Christian doctrine, but imo, it is what the Scriptures say.
Karlis





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