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The Environment and Capitalism


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#1    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:53 AM

Posted Image

http://collapseofind...vilization.com/

There is no sustainable capitalist solution to the environmental crisis we face. Change the economic fundamentals to a zero growth paradigm or face a collapse of civilization as an inevitable consequence.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#2    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

Or... we could all get given, by the government, the same sized house on the same sized land with the same wage for all so that no one is encouraged to work hard, or invent something to make them money.

Oh wait.... i think this has been tried before.....


#3    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:13 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 09 December 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Or... we could all get given, by the government, the same sized house on the same sized land with the same wage for all so that no one is encouraged to work hard, or invent something to make them money.

Oh wait.... i think this has been tried before.....

If the adherence to a growth paradigm leads to an inevitable environmental collapse is it really sensible to stick with it and just accept the consequences. There have been and continue to be many examples of sustainable zero growth lifestyles in the world - but none of them can be considered economically viable within the language of modern economics. What is at fault here - the sustainable lifestyle or modern economics.

I personally don't want to become extinct on a point of principle.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#4    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

Am I/we suppost to be on the verge of death because of global warming?

Or is this more scare mongering and nostradamus like predictions for decades to come?


#5    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 09 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Am I/we suppost to be on the verge of death because of global warming?

Or is this more scare mongering and nostradamus like predictions for decades to come?
Population pressure has manifested in collapse of environmental indices across the board. Global warming is simply one of a large range of crisis we face due to over exploitation of resources. The reality is that in a future of reduced access to cheap oil we will face many of the things we expect as modern citizens simply ceasing to be economically viable. It has already got to the stage that people are making hard choices of whether to heat their home, feed themselves or put petrol into their cars. We are in the early stages of a collapse and no amount of gigery pokery will magically put cheap oil back on the table.
This is the immediate human crisis, but the dash to maintain our lifestyle at any cost is reaking massive damage on the ecosystem which provides most of our essential resources such as soil and water. We are fracking our water tables to get gas which will lead to massive pollution of our essential supplies of clean water. Meanwhile biodiversity (the range of other organisms on the planet) is in freefall with knock on effects in agricultural productivity. For every 10% loss of biodiversity in agricultural lands we lose 1% agricultural productivity and we have already lost over 40% of on farm biodiversity. I suspect that there will be a tipping point where agricultural productivity will similarly fall off a cliff.

The only solution is to choose to not consume beyond the capacity of the planet to replenish. Communism is simply another flavour of capitalism with the same inate growth imperative - it offers no solution to anything. As I said we have to start to learn from people who actually do live sustainably - not from economists and political theorists who live in such a state of abstraction that most of them cannot even comprehend the challenges we face.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 09 December 2012 - 06:34 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#6    Little Fish

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

I don't want to live in a tree


#7    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

It does appear that you would like us to be subsistance farmers, much like we were 5,000+ years ago.

I will if you lead by example.


#8    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 09 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

It does appear that you would like us to be subsistance farmers, much like we were 5,000+ years ago.

I will if you lead by example.
It seems that you want to die. The definition of madness is to keep repeating a wrong course of action and expecting a better outcome to magically manifest.

Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Do you really think that ignoring the scientific evidence will protect you from the decline in oil, soil, water, biodiversity and clean air. Do you understand how dependent we are on a dwindling resource to hold the whole Tower of Bable together. Do you understand what will happen when industrial agriculture can no longer produce food at a price you can afford.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 09 December 2012 - 06:46 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#9    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 09 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

It seems that you want to die. The definition of madness is to keep repeating a wrong course of action and expecting a better outcome to magically manifest.

Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Br Cornelius

Am I in mortal danger? Look into your crystal ball Nostradamus, and tell me what you see?

Edited by Professor Buzzkill, 09 December 2012 - 06:44 PM.


#10    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 09 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:


Do you really think that ignoring the scientific evidence will protect you from the decline in oil, soil, water, biodiversity and clean air. Do you understand how dependent we are on a dwindling resource to hold the whole Tower of Bable together. Do you understand what will happen when industrial agriculture can no longer produce food at a price you can afford.

Br Cornelius

Death, it would seem. Unless your threats are as useless as your predictions.


#11    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 09 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Death, it would seem. Unless your threats are as useless as your predictions.

They are not my predictions - they are empirical facts produced by a range of scientists, economists and philosophers. I am just reporting those facts. They are readily available from multiple sources.

I find it tragic that an intelligent person like yourself would rather accept an inevitable death than actual get up and do something about it. That is why we will likely do as you say - die.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#12    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:58 PM

When will food become to expensive for the majority of people living in the west?

What will they do with the food that noone can afford? Throw it away? I live in a country with 4.5 million people, 40 million sheep and 18 million cows that also produces exports amounts of fruit an veges. I am sure that we can survive for a while as a self sustaining island. However, i doubt it will ever come to that.


#13    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 09 December 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

When will food become to expensive for the majority of people living in the west?

What will they do with the food that noone can afford? Throw it away? I live in a country with 4.5 million people, 40 million sheep and 18 million cows that also produces exports amounts of fruit an veges. I am sure that we can survive for a while as a self sustaining island. However, i doubt it will ever come to that.
Have you not wondered why food has almost doubled in price over the last 5 years ? Do you think that as oil prices continue to rise that will not get worse.
There are already a substantial number of people who have been plunged into food poverty in the UK as a direct consequence. Malnutrition in the west is on the rise.

Why so complacent ?

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#14    Little Fish

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:08 PM

maybe all food produced should be given to the UN, and they would distribute it "fairly" to all the compliant people on the planet...or maybe that's what they want me to think.


#15    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 09 December 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

maybe all food produced should be given to the UN, and they would distribute it "fairly" to all the compliant people on the planet...or maybe that's what they want me to think.
I didn't think you were in favour of big Government. You surprise me ;)

I smell a conspiracy theorist :clap:

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 09 December 2012 - 07:12 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson




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