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Holy Grail or Ark of Truth, do they exist?


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#16    draugr

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:05 PM

View PostUncle Sam, on 11 December 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Sorry I was thinking about the wrong ark, but thanks for the information guys. I like to keep this topic going about these two artifacts. Maybe sooner or later will discover the actual truth about them. I decided to bring it up because no-one is hardly talking about these two supposely powerful artifacts.

Lol, someone has Stargate on the brain.  :whistle:

Well, that's if they are, in fact, artifacts.  I'm skeptical, especially of the Grail, because it only showed up for the first time in Perceval, le Conte du Graal.  The author, Chrétien de Troyes, was - to use fantasy terms here - a bard, in the twelfth century.  He was a creative mind, don't get me wrong, because he was what I would consider the father of true medieval literature, but that's just it:  He was a bard.  Bards tell stories.  He got paid for writing stories his clients would like, and once the Arthurian legends got rolling, they were the rage.  That's why there are so many stories that trickled down to us in modern times concerning them.  The Grail itself really is only mentioned in these stories, 1100 years after Christ was supposedly crucified.

Of course, we still don't know 100% if Arthur was really a king or an archetype, so my skepticism may be proven wrong one day.  And you really can't talk about the Grail without talking about Arthur and his knights, so...

As a side note, I'm not entirely sure I'd want Arthur himself to be proven to have existed, either.  It's a great little mystery, and I'm afraid hard scientific fact of him would ruin the image I have of him in the stories.  There was a book I read not long ago, by Bernard Cornwell, called The Winter King, which shoved Arthur into the historical record of the Dark Ages, but it presented him in such a way I felt the need to slap him silly.  It's part of a series (that I have to finish, shame on me) that actually is pretty good.  /tl;dr ot


#17    Jor-el

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

View PostPeter Cox, on 11 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Hi there,

I think that you would find that you are mistaken. According to both Christian and Catholic religions the holy grail is a cup or bowl. Refrences below.

http://www.newadvent...then/06719a.htm
http://listverse.com...the-holy-grail/
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Holy_Grail

That is just off a google search. Please have a look OR post why you think its is Jesus and not an object.

If the Holy Grail had to exist, it would be hidden within metaphores and meanings, as such the cup (grail) would be something that held something sacred. When the cup was used by Christ, it was filled with wine, but Jesus himself said that, the wine was a metaphor for his blood, and that by taking his blood (metaphorically) we would also be remembering and honouring him. As such Jesus himself equated the Holy Grail with his person and not a physical cup. He is the cup, his blood is within it and that is why it is Holy.

The story of the Holy Grail, is a metaphor for Christ, who can give a man new and Eternal Life. If one reads the earliest literature of the Grail, we find this metaphor being repeatedly used...  Even today much is said about how the Grail, is not a thing, but a person, an example of this can be found in Dan Browns "The Da vinci Code", where it is equated to the bloodline of Jesus Christ, as perpetuated by Mary Magdelene.

Either legend (cup) and (bloodline) are extrapolations of the term Holy Graal or rather Sangreal, in the archaic French, which can also be translated, to "Royal Blood", definite refence to Jesus Christ Himself, and according to others, his bloodline.

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#18    Peter Cox

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:46 AM

View PostJor-el, on 11 December 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

If the Holy Grail had to exist, it would be hidden within metaphores and meanings, as such the cup (grail) would be something that held something sacred. When the cup was used by Christ, it was filled with wine, but Jesus himself said that, the wine was a metaphor for his blood, and that by taking his blood (metaphorically) we would also be remembering and honouring him. As such Jesus himself equated the Holy Grail with his person and not a physical cup. He is the cup, his blood is within it and that is why it is Holy.

The story of the Holy Grail, is a metaphor for Christ, who can give a man new and Eternal Life. If one reads the earliest literature of the Grail, we find this metaphor being repeatedly used...  Even today much is said about how the Grail, is not a thing, but a person, an example of this can be found in Dan Browns "The Da vinci Code", where it is equated to the bloodline of Jesus Christ, as perpetuated by Mary Magdelene.

Either legend (cup) and (bloodline) are extrapolations of the term Holy Graal or rather Sangreal, in the archaic French, which can also be translated, to "Royal Blood", definite refence to Jesus Christ Himself, and according to others, his bloodline.

Sorry but the Da Vinci Code is not a refrence point at all its a novel, that is the same as me saying that middle earth exsisit casue its in the lord of the rings.....

And no..... The grail is the CUP used by christ at the last supper and supposedly used to collect his REAL blood when the romans put a spear in his side (done by John if memory serves)

When God referes to the wine being his blood he was refering to the liqued insdie the cup or grail but not the cup itself, so there is where the diffrence lies. I understand your view point however you cant confuse the fact that Jesus used a CUP to drink the wine out of and that CUP is the cup of Christ or also referd to as the holy grail. So to use a refrence that holds as much merit as yours indian Jones found the Cup of Christ and it was called the holy grail, in the first indianan jones move.

So yes Jesus past a cup around the dinner table at the last supper filled with wine, and said drink of this wine as my blood and the bread represented his body, so is bread a holy grail too? the simple answer is no, it cant be. The cup of christ is the holy grail and the sentiment behind the wine being blood was a diffrent thing all together, its what christians refer to as the breaking of bread.

So the grail is pysical (the cup) and the wine had the more spiritual meaning.

But i do like your argument, however there is a diffrence between the spirtual meaning and the pysical cup of Christ.

Thanks

Edited by Peter Cox, 12 December 2012 - 09:49 AM.


#19    Qwaiser

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

Is there any reference of the Holy Grail in the Bible?


#20    Jor-el

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

View PostPeter Cox, on 12 December 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Sorry but the Da Vinci Code is not a refrence point at all its a novel, that is the same as me saying that middle earth exsisit casue its in the lord of the rings.....

And no..... The grail is the CUP used by christ at the last supper and supposedly used to collect his REAL blood when the romans put a spear in his side (done by John if memory serves)

When God referes to the wine being his blood he was refering to the liqued insdie the cup or grail but not the cup itself, so there is where the diffrence lies. I understand your view point however you cant confuse the fact that Jesus used a CUP to drink the wine out of and that CUP is the cup of Christ or also referd to as the holy grail. So to use a refrence that holds as much merit as yours indian Jones found the Cup of Christ and it was called the holy grail, in the first indianan jones move.

So yes Jesus past a cup around the dinner table at the last supper filled with wine, and said drink of this wine as my blood and the bread represented his body, so is bread a holy grail too? the simple answer is no, it cant be. The cup of christ is the holy grail and the sentiment behind the wine being blood was a diffrent thing all together, its what christians refer to as the breaking of bread.

So the grail is pysical (the cup) and the wine had the more spiritual meaning.

But i do like your argument, however there is a diffrence between the spirtual meaning and the pysical cup of Christ.

Thanks

One point you should consider in all you said, the cup Jesus passed around, was never referred to as the Holy Grail in any literature.... it was referred to as a cup,  Simply put, there was no Holiness associated with it, nor did Jesus emphasise the cup in any way. It had no mystical properties before or after the Last Supper, it was used time and again by others, after Jesus left the house in question, which was not even a house belonging to any members of his group.

The fact that this cup becomes embued with magical and mystical properties, is a story that has no basis in fact. It is well known that there are more references to magical and mystical objects in Celtic Mythology and Folklore, than in Christianity, including a magical Cauldron.

See: http://en.wikipedia....ran_the_Blessed

This is why I would state that the reference to a Holy Grail can only be a refence to Christ himself, just as the Tree of Life is also a reference to Christ.

The Da Vinci Code is a Novel, but Dan Brown did in fact get his information from sources that believe exactly what he portrayed in the movie. Gnostic beliefs cover this quite openly in their acceptence of Mary Magdalene as the wife of Jesus.

See: http://en.wikipedia....d_Gnostic_texts

I merely use the wiki links as examples (just as I did, the Da Vinci Code), because there are a number of sites totally dedicated to this stuff, which dates right back to the late 2nd Century. The Gnostic texts themselves are also easily available online.

Historically this can be found to be connected quite clearly to references of the Holy Grail, especially as it related to the Merovingian Kings, said to be heirs of the Holy bloodline of Jesus...

See: http://en.wikipedia...._the_Holy_Grail

So to sumarize... yes Jesus used a cup, but it remeained a cup, there is no Holy Grail, and if there is, it can only be Jesus himself.

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#21    Jor-el

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

View PostQwaiser, on 12 December 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

Is there any reference of the Holy Grail in the Bible?

No. The only refence is to a cup and that is it. Everything about the Holy Grail, is myth and legend, brought forth by the melding of different mythologies in the British Isles and the acceptance of Christianity in that era. The fact that the Roman Catholic Mass utilizes a cup to Hold the wine of the Eucharist was enough to mutate these myths into what is known today as the Holy Grail.

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#22    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostJor-el, on 11 December 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

If the Holy Grail had to exist, it would be hidden within metaphores and meanings, as such the cup (grail) would be something that held something sacred. When the cup was used by Christ, it was filled with wine, but Jesus himself said that, the wine was a metaphor for his blood, and that by taking his blood (metaphorically) we would also be remembering and honouring him. As such Jesus himself equated the Holy Grail with his person and not a physical cup. He is the cup, his blood is within it and that is why it is Holy.

The story of the Holy Grail, is a metaphor for Christ, who can give a man new and Eternal Life. If one reads the earliest literature of the Grail, we find this metaphor being repeatedly used...  Even today much is said about how the Grail, is not a thing, but a person, an example of this can be found in Dan Browns "The Da vinci Code", where it is equated to the bloodline of Jesus Christ, as perpetuated by Mary Magdelene.

Either legend (cup) and (bloodline) are extrapolations of the term Holy Graal or rather Sangreal, in the archaic French, which can also be translated, to "Royal Blood", definite refence to Jesus Christ Himself, and according to others, his bloodline.

I was just going to mention the Da vinci Code but thought I would be mocked.   This is a great post.  Dan Brown used this book as a reference.  He was sued for not crediting them enough.

http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/0440136482

The ark and the grail are very real.

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#23    Jor-el

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I was just going to mention the Da vinci Code but thought I would be mocked.   This is a great post.  Dan Brown used this book as a reference.  He was sued for not crediting them enough.

http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/0440136482

The ark and the grail are very real.

I actually mentioned the book as well in one of my links in post 20, although my understanding is that there is really no such thing as the Holy Grail, it is merely the descendant of an earlier mythos fused to chrsitian rites in the form of the Catholic Mass.

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#24    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

The grail's importance may be contrived by the church.  It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  If you went to a party last week and drank out of a cup.  And I decided it was sacred.  The cup is real.  Maybe it really isn't sacred.  The ark on the other hand is very real. It is described in Exodus.  It isn't a part of the church alone. The Jewish culture respects it as well.

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#25    Jor-el

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

The grail's importance may be contrived by the church.  It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  If you went to a party last week and drank out of a cup.  And I decided it was sacred.  The cup is real.  Maybe it really isn't sacred.  The ark on the other hand is very real. It is described in Exodus.  It isn't a part of the church alone. The Jewish culture respects it as well.

Oh I agree, but if the cup has no mystical properties, then how would one know which one was real? I imagine thousands of cups must still exist from that time, very few, from Israel though, even less if they weern't made of a precious metal, if we are talking of a wooden cup (which is the most likely) then time would have rendered it to dust by now.

How many cups did Jesus and his disciples drink from in their 3 1/2 years together, which one can be said to be THAT Holy Grail? Remeber, nobody knew what was going to happen, they never in their lives thought that Jesus would be dead by that time tomorrow. There is absolutely no reason to think that that cup was anything special. The last supper as we know the scene was a normal event within Jewish society, it is called Passover Seder. It only gained importance in the context of christ because of what came later.

The house they had the passover meal was hired for only that night. Jesus alludes to this in a number of Gospels. It is like having a dinner at a Hotel on the evening of a national holiday. There was absolutely no reason why that cup would have been held in any special light.

As for the Ark of the Covenant, I would agree with you completely and as I stated earlier, it is widely believed to be in Ethiopia. A fact that is consistent with historical details known to exist after its disappearance from Jerusalem.

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#26    draugr

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

Not mocking at all, since I own a first edition of the book in question, but you guys do realize Holy Blood Holy Grail should be taken with a whole shaker of salt, right?  It's...Kind of a wall-eyed connect the dots with different disconnected points in history.

Fascinating read, but definitely not something I'd base any kind of belief on.  Especially since the authors themselves were horrendously duped about the Priory of Sion which...Has only existed since the 50s, not since the creation of the Templars.


#27    Cassea

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

Jor el

If you went to your mother's house for dinner. She drank from her mug and passed it around.  She said drink from it.  Do this is memory of me in the future.  And God forbid she died the next day.  I think you would remember which cup she used.  And you'd think it was pretty special. I bet.

Edited by Cassea, 12 December 2012 - 10:50 PM.

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#28    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:04 PM

View PostCassea, on 12 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I was just going to mention the Da vinci Code but thought I would be mocked.   This is a great post.  Dan Brown used this book as a reference.  He was sued for not crediting them enough.

http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/0440136482

The ark and the grail are very real.
The problem with Holy Blood, Holy Grail is that researching it wasn't enough to convince the author of the veracity of the claims (Lincoln to this day says "I neither believe nor disbelieve" when asked about the Holy Grail being the bloodline of Christ).
Secondly it relies a little too heavily on a proven hoax (the Priory of Scion).
Thirdly, I can't get past Lincoln's other job being a writer of fiction - I know that writers write, and Tolkien wrote reference books as well and so on.

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When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#29    Peter Cox

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:57 AM

Hi all,

I still have to say that when MOST people say the holy grail the forst thing you think of is the cup of christ. If the cup holds any power is a diffrent question (I would say no) however the importance of it being the last cup Christ drank out of it makes it pretty special, it makes it even more special that he passed it around to his dicipals and said take this cup and as you drink of the wine remember me (not the exacvt words but along those lines) so that leand more credit to the cup and its contence being of great importance.

Lets be honrest here, if king TUT drank from one cup and had a final dinner before his death and let his family drink from the cup, then have a speach about the cup and its contents and all that is recorded in time and pictures and you found that cup, it would be pretty special.

On the note of a holy blood line, we basing an argument/debate on what is in the bible, does it not make sense that if Jesus got married and had kids it would have been recorded in the bible? Cause it is most def not. As far as memory serves the whole Mary and the bloodline comes from the painting of the last supper, done a long time after the time period of Jesus life. At best its a fringe theory.

Saying Dan Brown based it on fact from his sourse still lends little credit to use that as a refrence point for the holy grail and the blood line, I can very strongly prove that all the places in lord of the rings were based on real places, Tolkin admits this himself, does that mean the story really happened?

So in closing I see your point of view about the body of christ being the grail, however I still feel that it is the cup used at the last supper and that is widly accepted as correct.


#30    chopmo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:25 PM

View PostJor-el, on 10 December 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

As far as I know there has never been any Holy Grail of any kind, whether it be a cup or a person. Legend abounds but there has never been any real proof of its existence. As for the ark of truth, no such thing exists except in Stargate. If on the other hand you are speaking of the Ark of the Covenant, then there is a real possibility that it now resides in Ethiopia.



Precisely my theory.

In the below level churches, they are absolutely amazing buildings, the last stop the ark ever made. the people there (from what i have seen/read) are not violent but do pack alot of power for defensive reasons.

In addition I also think that maybe the crystal skulls are trademark stamps of where the ark had been. Not some magic superpowered tool, but a simple reminder not to stay there as they had stayed before if one was to pass an old trail as the integrity of being hidden would be comprimised. Especially if someone was following an older trail of it's past locations. Also most of it's travels were from what I believe to be in the same era of wizards, dragons, crystals, skulls so one would use this a crystal skull as a scare tactic, if you were under the impression that these things existed as many of the tales say. It'd be like a haunted house effect, just waiting for something to scare the whatever out of you.

Just in personal ideas.

why is everyone so &^%$ing concerned with "the end"...
new beginnings is what you should be concerned about...




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